Reliable Mercedes

[hawk20]

It's easy to forget that nobody comes to a forum to say my lights are working. Many come with a problem and that's good. Others are here to help.

BUT it is easy to get a depressing picture of cars with faults as a number of threads show at the moment. To try and introduce a sense of perspective I have just looked up the latest JD Power results at which Mercedes have not done well in the past. Well things are improving.
Here are the top executive cars for 'customer satisfaction': -
1st Lexus IS200
2nd Jaguar S-type
3rd BMW 3 Series
4th Volvo V70
5th Volvo S60
6th Audi A4
7th Mercedes E-Class
8th Mercedes C-Class
9th Audi A6
10th Rover 75/MG ZT
11th BMW 5 Series
12th Jaguar X-type
13th Vauxhall Signum
14th Saab 9-3
15th Alfa Romeo 156

Lexus and Honda did best in the list of all models but it is noteworthy how close the marks are from 10th to 40th. Just to cheer ourselves up here are some rankings in the table of all models. Out of 104 cars reported on by thousands of owners the E class finished 28th (just behind the Audi A4 and the Toyota Celica and the C class came 32nd just ahead of the Audi A3 and the Audi A6 and the VW Golf. Both Mercedes were well ahead of the BMW 5 series at 45th and well ahead of the Nissan Primera (56th=) and the Mazda MX5 (56=) and way ahead of the BMW Z4 (74th) and the AUDI TT ( a lowly 78th). Bringing up the rear from 100 to 105th place were three Fords, a Peugeot and the Land Rover Discovery.

So Mercs may not be the most reliable but the improvements are coming through for all to see and this year they beat some surprising competitors - none I imagine more satisfying than beating the BMW 5 series and Z4 as well as all but one of the Audi models.

Here are the links: -
http://www.whatcar.com/news-special-report.aspx?NA=220291
http://www.whatcar.com/NonCar/8666102471.jpg

For those who want coupes and roadsters the results were;
Roadsters and coupes
1st Toyota Celica
2nd Mazda RX-8
3rd Hyundai Coupe
4th Mazda MX-5
5th Mercedes CLK
6th BMW Z4
7th Audi TT

:grin:

 

[ian l]

My Oct 2006 C220CDI has now completed 17,000 miles with NO problems what so ever. One visit to the dealer for a service. Brilliant car!

 

[psmart]

Mercedes Benz & Reliabilty....

Chalk and Cheese.............

Better off with a pair of good Nike's and learn to use those two sticks attached to your torso.... at least there reliable

 

[Blobcat]

Chalk and Cheese.............

Better off with a pair of good Nike's and learn to use those two sticks attached to your torso.... at least there reliable

Quote "Be kind to your knees you'll miss them when their gone"

 

[psmart]

Quote "Be kind to your knees you'll miss them when their gone"

Aaahhh... but at least they'll go the distance, a few more thousand miles still left in 'em

 

[hawk20]

My Oct 2006 C220CDI has now completed 17,000 miles with NO problems what so ever. One visit to the dealer for a service. Brilliant car!

Glad to hear it. I take it you mean October 2005 or even 2004?? Or does your car do time travel as well?
Your case makes my point. All car makers make some good and some bad 'uns. The question is what are the proportions and the only way to get the truth on that is via surveys. Psmart may not believe it, as he has had a bad experience, but the news on Mercedes from surveys is getting better and better. The E and the C class both finished way ahead of the BMW 5 series and ahead of all Audis except one.

 

[psmart]

Psmart may not believe it, as he has had a bad experience, but the news on Mercedes from surveys is getting better and better. The E and the C class both finished way ahead of the BMW 5 series and ahead of all Audis except one.

Wadya mean? On the whole, Ive had a good experience, and if Id sold the car at 5 years as I originally planned (and not got involved with this forum), Id never have had any bad experience, BUT, the longer I keep this vehicle, the more I cannot get rid of it, kinda like a wife, you know you should change after 4 years, but you always end up holding on

I just like winding up over positive people, after all, there only cars.... arent they?

 

[hawk20]

Chalk and Cheese.............

Better off with a pair of good Nike's and learn to use those two sticks attached to your torso.... at least there reliable

Just another quote from Psmart to illustrate the relentless desire to spread a little sunshine.

 

[psmart]

to spread a little sunshine.

Technically impossible to spread a little sunshine, but I suppose Mercedes Salesmen believe it... after all, they believe and keep telling us... that Mercedes Benz are reliable.....

Chalk and Cheese....

 

[hawk20]

And the way things are improving, they'll be able to say it with a straight face.

 

[psmart]

In 4 years, if few are coming to this forum with requests for help on sub-4 years cars, then yes, they can, until then, its Midas Gold, a carefully crafted illusion.

I was full of praise for Mercedes at the beginning of the year, and I now admit, I was a total idiot. One family, three households in different locations, 3 different types of Merc bought brand new (2, 4 and 5.75 yr old), all with reliability issues, I dare not ask friends and colleagues to whom I recommended Merc as to their experiences.

I have a business meeting in Munich tomorrow and I usually hire a Merc E class, not to night! I've decided to revisit my past decisions and hire a BMW 530d, photos and opinions will soon follow.

 

[OmniCognateNeutronRangler]

Please see the thread entitled "MB Driver Experience - my last MB?" where there are some real cases of "MB Issues" with their cars rather than the rather rose-tinted opinion expressed by some members in this thread.

 

[blassberg]

the rather rose-tinted opinion expressed by some members in this thread.

142 out of 163 merc owners in this poll thought their cars were firkin' fantastic or good for a car of its age.
http://mbclub.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=27478

 

[psmart]

142 out of 163 merc owners in this poll thought their cars were firkin' fantastic or good for a car of its age.
http://mbclub.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=27478

And the rest of the world think differently: http://www.mercedes-benz-usa.com/mbusa_complaints.php

Is it something to be proud of when a single poll, of indeterminate anonymous people, says 87% reliability and happiness?

 

[hawk20]

142 out of 163 merc owners in this poll thought their cars were firkin' fantastic or good for a car of its age.
http://mbclub.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=27478

Yes a very good result. Here are some interesting problems with Japanese cars, just for a bit of balance: -
MAZDA
http://rotarynews.com/node/view/822

NISSAN recalls 200,000 Altima and Sentra models as stop running in warm weather.
http://www.nissanhelp.com/News/Nissan Recalls 200,500 2003 Altima and Sentra Models.htm

Less than a year ago they had to recall 400,000 Altima and Maximas because of corrosion of the rear sub-frames
http://www.nissanhelp.com/Recalls/Altima/2002.htm

And Toyota have had to recall the Camry due to twisted airbags
http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/cars/problems/recalls/recallsearch.cfm You need to insert the campaign number 04V346000

Plus Toyotas more general problems:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/5285196.stm


Toyota to tackle quality control

Toyota may have to delay the roll-out of some new models while it resolves quality control issues that have seen more than a million cars recalled.
President Katsuaki Watanabe said the firm was looking at all aspects of car development, from manufacturing and design to dealing with customer gripes.
A report in the Wall Street Journal said the changes could delay some new models by up to six months.
Toyota has recalled some 1.5 million cars in Japan and the US this year.
On Friday, authorities in China announced that Toyota would recall 20,000 cars due to a faulty rubber seal used to fix the windscreen.
Three of the company's executives are being investigated by Japanese prosecutors over claims they delayed a car recall that may have prevented a subsequent road accident that injured a couple and three young children.
Car manufacturers are increasingly trying to cut costs by using the same components across a range of models, but this has led to a rise in the number of recalls.
Toyota has built up a reputation for reliability in many world markets, a key contributor to its success as it looks to overtake General Motors as the world's biggest carmaker

 

[psmart]

A conman trick, distract the viewers attention...

Yes a very good result. Here are some interesting problems with Japanese cars, just for a bit of balance: -
MAZDA
http://rotarynews.com/node/view/822

NISSAN recalls 200,000 Altima and Sentra models as stop running in warm weather.
http://www.nissanhelp.com/News/Nissan Recalls 200,500 2003 Altima and Sentra Models.htm

Less than a year ago they had to recall 400,000 Altima and Maximas because of corrosion of the rear sub-frames
http://www.nissanhelp.com/Recalls/Altima/2002.htm

And Toyota have had to recall the Camry due to twisted airbags
http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/cars/problems/recalls/recallsearch.cfm You need to insert the campaign number 04V346000

Plus Toyotas more general problems:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/5285196.stm


Toyota to tackle quality control

Toyota may have to delay the roll-out of some new models while it resolves quality control issues that have seen more than a million cars recalled.
President Katsuaki Watanabe said the firm was looking at all aspects of car development, from manufacturing and design to dealing with customer gripes.
A report in the Wall Street Journal said the changes could delay some new models by up to six months.
Toyota has recalled some 1.5 million cars in Japan and the US this year.
On Friday, authorities in China announced that Toyota would recall 20,000 cars due to a faulty rubber seal used to fix the windscreen.
Three of the company's executives are being investigated by Japanese prosecutors over claims they delayed a car recall that may have prevented a subsequent road accident that injured a couple and three young children.
Car manufacturers are increasingly trying to cut costs by using the same components across a range of models, but this has led to a rise in the number of recalls.
Toyota has built up a reputation for reliability in many world markets, a key contributor to its success as it looks to overtake General Motors as the world's biggest carmaker

... away from the subject, Mercedes Reliability. Showing us the pitfalls of other brands is irrelevant as we are all Mercedes owners and are interested in the reliability of one brand, MERCEDES.

 

[hawk20]

... away from the subject, Mercedes Reliability. Showing us the pitfalls of other brands is irrelevant as we are all Mercedes owners and are interested in the reliability of one brand, MERCEDES.

Oh really is that why you said in posting number 11: -
"I have a business meeting in Munich tomorrow and I usually hire a Merc E class, not to night! I've decided to revisit my past decisions and hire a BMW 530d, photos and opinions will soon follow."

Other brands irrelevant are they? Or is that only if it's bad news about them?

As Einstein said, 'everything is relative' and reliability is a relative concept. When judging our Mercs we do so compared with other makes and how reliable they are. Modern cars are vastly complex machines, with large electrical and electronic systems. Like computers they fulfill many functions but go wrong. Seeing that other makers have serious problems too helps us keep a sense of perspective. Of course, those who come mainly to knock Mercedes don't really want that perspective.

 

[jberks]

Let me make a statement - "Mercs are not as reliable as they were in 1989".
I suspect no one is going to argue with that. So, yes, quality has dropped.
I've whittered on about how they are cheaper now than ever before, so I won't go there again.
It is also true that in 1989, Fords were fairly ropey, as were Rovers, Renaults and other 'ordinary' makes. Japanese cars were equally as reliable as Mercs, if not more so, but were characterless tin cans so didn't count.

So, how was this achieved? In my view, by 3 factors. Firstly, Merc used thicker steel and stronger (denser) materials but this meant they weighed as much as a sherman and handled about as well.
The second aspect was quality control in component manufacture. Again, using better materials able to handle higher tolerances, they maintained an advantage.
The third was that they didn't change a proven formula. So, anyone looking at a 124 wouldn't see a vast change from a 123. More a slow steady evolution than any revolution. Models also lasted 8-10 years. In those days, things tended to change more slowly. A shop would sell the same items year after year - not any more.

Fast forward to today and you find that by using modern manufacturing techniques and materials, the quality and tolerances of 'cheaper' mass produced components has now risen to be damn near the 1989 MB standards. So, the bar has risen and MB can no longer justify the much greater cost for the fractional improvement.
Whilst they are still damn heavy, the pressure to reduce weight to give us the handling and fuel economy we crave, has meant that some components, previously made out of steel are now plastic. Other materials have thinned down too and that has clearly had some effect on longevity. That said, if we were getting 26mpg on a run from an E350, they simply wouldn't sell as many.
MB were also bitten by having to go high tech. Sure they'd always been ahead of the pack, with ABS, airbags and the like, but these were technologies that few competitors could afford so they'd had time to test and prove them. Now, with cheaper production methods, competitors could afford to push the technology envelope too. This meant that rather than strolling on ahead, MB were having to run just to keep up. Old proven technologies they'd had forever, suddenly looked old fashioned and in an attempt to update them in a hurry, they screwed up. After all, the Japanese changed models almost daily so were well used to changing things all the time and bringing out the latest novelty. To the Germans, this went against the grain. No wonder they made a hash of it.
With all this change, the cost of developing new models rocketed and as a result, a) testing budgets suffered and b) there were simply too few cars sold to spread them over. So, they had no choice but to go down market into more mass market models. However, again, they weren't used to the mass market and it's not surprising that their dealers and suppliers struggled and quality slipped. Add in the accountants and greens buggering about with the rust proofing, cable insulation etc and other aspects and we were bound to have problems.
If we're looking for the same differentiation that we used to have, then we're going to be disappointed. The bar is too high now. Hence, yes, a Mondeo Diesel is probably one of the best cars on the market - (You'd never have heard me say that about a Sierra!).
Still, my E still has more character than any Jap box, more luxury than any ford, more presence than any other German marque so I'll keep it thanks - plus, its been pretty damn reliable!

Oh, on the who bought who question. It was technically a Merger so neither firm bough the other. However, it is blatantly clear that Daimler, as the more succesful and financially strong partner was the dominant one. Sure there is a lot of cross polenation and we see Daimler kit in Chryslers - but I've seen nothing coming the other way!

 

[hawk20]

Oh, on the who bought who question. It was technically a Merger so neither firm bough the other. However, it is blatantly clear that Daimler, as the more succesful and financially strong partner was the dominant one. Sure there is a lot of cross polenation and we see Daimler kit in Chryslers - but I've seen nothing coming the other way!

Totally agree with all of that. And I assume that marketing wise the top guys at Merc will try to keep it that way. Use the best badge.

On your 'Mercs are less reliable than in 1989' point, and before, and on the many wise words that followed, I agree with much of your argument but I suspect that much of it is probably true of a huge number of other makes and models. The plethora of electronic goodies is the main cause in my view plus the recent obsession with 'new' and 'up-to-date' etc rather than with tried and tested.

 

[psmart]

Other brands irrelevant are they? Or is that only if it's bad news about them?

As Einstein said, 'everything is relative' and reliability is a relative concept. When judging our Mercs we do so compared with other makes and how reliable they are. Modern cars are vastly complex machines, with large electrical and electronic systems. Like computers they fulfill many functions but go wrong. Seeing that other makers have serious problems too helps us keep a sense of perspective. Of course, those who come mainly to knock Mercedes don't really want that perspective.

Simply put, Hawk20, I am balancing you out. You seem to have a financial motive in attempting to persuade people to buy Mercs, and in so doing, you are distracting people away from the realities of ownership. You keep on quoting rags and magazines, whose financial motives (and hence the information they supply) is hidden from us. You keep on intentionally confusing Quality and Reliability, Mercedes are Quality, but its the Reliability, which Mercedes have let wane, that determines how much it will cost you, both financially and missed opportunites (due to breakdown or visits to a dealer)!

When you buy a Mercedes now, its no longer for its superior reliability and longetivity, but for other personal reasons (quality, class, image, safety). JBerks summed up the whole situation very eloquently and this is just the type of information people need to read about Mercs.

How irresponsible is it to convince a potential buyer that a Merc is reliable and depreciation is low (2 primary factors of total cost of ownership), they then go out and max out on their savings/loans to get the best Merc they can afford, only to find it is potential fools gold and end up in hock. Mercs were the model of reliability, they arent now, and given the high costs of repairs and complexity of the cars, the real cost of owning a Merc is not-calculable. This is only too relevant reading the requests for help and information given in the technical sections.

As a forum, we should be putting the blatant truths down, to allow others to gauge wether a Merc is for them, the potential pitfalls and likely costs. I like my Merc and I hope others do too, and they consequently buy one, but only when they know the truths; not the myths perpetrated forward into current models from the pre 1989 era (or possibly even pre 1998 era).

Lets put the facts straight and not the rosey painted picture, or the messenger of doom and gloom, so that people can see what they are letting themselves in for when they choose a Merc.

Of course, those who come mainly to knock Mercedes don't really want that perspective.

Just to let you know how successful your campaign is, you've convinced me, lock stock and barrel not to buy a new Merc. I'll be hanging on to my ML until it goes to the great scrapyard in the sky!

....oh! and perhaps you didnt see my followup post.... I hired a CLK Cabriolet .... I think it was a Mercedes, but perhaps it was a BMW in sheeps clothing