Rental death trap - Nissan - what were they thinking ?

[Botus]

never ask for feedback...

I didn't get the vehicle ordered. I fully understand its "luck of the drawer" but the Nissan Qashqai I got was dangerous and not as good to drive as I expected.

Two major safety issues (not per se this specific car, I presume ALL of them)

1. Steering wheel response was extremely dangerous. I do not like heavy steering - but the lightness of this vehicle was plainly much too light and far to nervous. It was so light and responsive it almost wants to do a U turn at any speed from any slight steering input. I found it was adjustable, but even two notches firmer in to sport it was still crazy light and absurdly nervous.

1. The radar active cruise control was also ridiculously dangerous. I must state I have had radar cruise on my last two vehicles for the last 10 years - so I fully appreciate its benefits and how it should operate. It performed sufficiently well much of the time. With the exception of stationary traffic. Here it recognised the situation and braked to a complete stop - just like my car does, however your Nissan then waits for a second, emits a faint beep – deactivates radar cruise - and drives forward uncommanded. Straight in to junctions, other dangerous situations or indeed into stationary traffic.

I can see no benefits for either of points 1 and 2 above, but I can see I would not homologate either feature for use on public roads. As is, both points are deadly and unnecessary – I will be picking up these point with authorities and indeed with the manufacturer

I would like to say the man processing returning vehicles at Schiphol was the only pleasant element of this rental experience.

 

[JBell]

One for @Craiglxviii here I think

 

[Craiglxviii]

Sure. I can’t answer point 2 (I didn’t work on the radar cruise control, that was department DK3) but I can for point 1, and it’s simple.

Nissan is an Asian carmaker. It’s design standards are geared towards (primarily) the Asian markets first. More specifically, the various user interface/ experience scores used to set the design points for about 3,000 different touch points, are primarily geared towards Japanese people first. This may need some explanation…

Think of every way you experience a car. The view as you approach it- there’s a score for that. Actually 9; the visual appeal (front quarter, rear quarter, side) at 10m, 5m and 1m. The physical feel of the door handle as you touch it; the force required to unlatch the door with the handle; the force required to open the door with the handle. There are scores for all these things. In addition, everything else too. Engine noise (at different speeds, on different types of road); ride & handling; loading & unloading the trunk; putting drinks in cup holders (and how securely they fit); you think of it, there’s a score for just about everything.

When a new model is to be introduced it will have a defined competitor basket. For Qashqai this is usually the Golf, Peugeot 3008, Audi A3, Focus etc. The spec team then go and hire representative examples of all those cars and score them on the criteria I outlined. This gives a series of performance benchmarks for the new model to hit (e.g. “minimum score of 48/60 in boot loading” etc) which the design engineering team then work to achieve, given the styling surface (3D exterior shape) that the designers in That London have come up with. Ok so far?

Now, back to the Japanese. They’re physically smaller and weaker than most Europeans on average, so their design standards reflect that. The door opening effort on a Golf is more than double that of a Qashqai. It’s not the weight of the door btw, they’re similar, it’s the friction designed into the check link that creates the opening effort. The Japanese like doors that feel light & easy to open, so that becomes the design standard. Europeans like doors that feel heavy, as it creates a sense of increased premium in the design.

Moving to steering wheel effort, it’s exactly the same thing. The Japanese like easy to turn wheels. Most Europeans like to feel that they’re putting effort in even when that effort is only a few springs & rollers generating some friction.

So that is why!

 

[JBell]

Wonder what the other 100k+ people that have bought them think?

 

[Craiglxviii]

Wonder what the other 100k+ people that have bought them think?

J10 Qashqai sales totalled 1.3 million from its 2008 launch to 2013 when the much improved J11 was introduced. That ran to 2018 with sales averaging 300k pa, one year 354k iirc. J12 came in 2018 to about 250k pa. So, about 4 million Qashqai have left the Sunderland plant to date.

 

[V6Matty]

J10 Qashqai sales totalled 1.3 million from its 2008 launch to 2013 when the much improved J11 was introduced. That ran to 2018 with sales averaging 300k pa, one year 354k iirc. J12 came in 2018 to about 250k pa. So, about 4 million Qashqai have left the Sunderland plant to date.

So just a couple then

 

[coxyhog]

Before I bought my E500 I read some reviews & it was said that the steering was too light.
I soon got used to it.

 

[Botus]

thanks for the input chaps...

My S500 has vague slow steering - its slightly too heavy and has too little response to inputs (but its safe)
My 335d had mad super heavy hideous steering, and it stopped you driving safely or even quickly - as you had to fight so hard to move about the road - main reason I got rid of it so quickly
My Omeba had vague steering - one day the ABS went wrong and the speed sensitive steering could swap at 70mph to the light town set up - and it was much more maneuverable - but it wasn't utterly mad like the Nissan is everywhere
My Father's E280 tractor of 2006 vintage, has odd steering that overall is OK except it has a stuck in treacle resistance that spoils an otherwise pretty good car
Her Mk 2 Focus has alert, safe, light steering that's joy to use - and its light years better than the Nissan - where even in sport when you go to touch the radio half the time you swerve 3 lanes across the motorway and have to fight not to be going 180 degrees the other way

Active cruise on my S500 stops in traffic with the brakes on and does nothing.... until the driver touches the throttle or flicks the cruise lever to resume active cruise - at level 4 I'd be OK for it to carry on once the traffic moved - but to do a Nissan and try to kill should clearly be a recall

The other interesting fact was the Nissan active cruise was much closer to the BM's safety values - missing a lot of quite irritating stuff Merc use. If someone pulls in front the Nissan doesn't react - pretty much at all - no matter how close - the Merc will quite urgently try to re establish the 2 second rule... not sure how they are allowed to do what Nissan manage - other times it reacts much later than it should - like slowing for traffic that clearly isn't accelerating

 

[malcolm E53 AMG]

Interesting comments Craig about customer ratings involved in car design/ergonomics but I can’t help feeling that Botus has a good point here in so far as the steering is the main interface with the driver and needs to be right all the Qashqai owners I know are women which may be a clue to why it has excessively light steering. My son’s partner has one and she loves it

 

[Botus]

Interesting comments Craig about customer ratings involved in car design/ergonomics but I can’t help feeling that Botus has a good point here in so far as the steering is the main interface with the driver and needs to be right all the Qashqai owners I know are women which may be a clue to why it has excessively light steering. My son’s partner has one and she loves it

On the Nissan I struggled to detect the change between the 3 steering modes. I even parked up and took the key out - in case it couldn't move to sport whilst moving - and the next day I tried moving off sport to the light one - if there's a difference its 40% too little

I'd have sport as lightest and even swap that to firmer as speed went above 40 mph

Oh and I did 600 km in the thing over two days - so not a one off round town 5 mins drive

 

[malcolm E53 AMG]

The trouble with electrically assisted steering racks is that they feel dead compared to hydraulic systems so you are starting from a low base mechanically. My S212 electrically assisted steering rack felt very odd when I bought it the self centralising was almost overpowering on fast bends and a bit alarming but I’m glad to say over the years this has diminished to quite a good feel. My BMW 4 series electrically assisted rack is also bedding in nicely at 13k miles as the hard bushed suspension is starting to give a little bit I still think the loss of feel isn’t worth the slight saving in mpg

 

[EmilysDad]

thanks for the input chaps...

.....
My Omeba had vague steering - one day the ABS went wrong and the speed sensitive steering could swap at 70mph to the light town set up - and it was much more maneuverable - but it wasn't utterly mad like the Nissan is everywhere
.....

Never had a problem with my Omega ... maybe it was the steering box rather than rack you didn't like. I know the amount assistance could be altered on it ... 3 settings.

 

[A.J.]

thanks for the input chaps...

My S500 has vague slow steering - its slightly too heavy and has too little response to inputs (but its safe)
My 335d had mad super heavy hideous steering, and it stopped you driving safely or even quickly - as you had to fight so hard to move about the road - main reason I got rid of it so quickly
My Omeba had vague steering - one day the ABS went wrong and the speed sensitive steering could swap at 70mph to the light town set up - and it was much more maneuverable - but it wasn't utterly mad like the Nissan is everywhere
My Father's E280 tractor of 2006 vintage, has odd steering that overall is OK except it has a stuck in treacle resistance that spoils an otherwise pretty good car
Her Mk 2 Focus has alert, safe, light steering that's joy to use - and its light years better than the Nissan - where even in sport when you go to touch the radio half the time you swerve 3 lanes across the motorway and have to fight not to be going 180 degrees the other way

Active cruise on my S500 stops in traffic with the brakes on and does nothing.... until the driver touches the throttle or flicks the cruise lever to resume active cruise - at level 4 I'd be OK for it to carry on once the traffic moved - but to do a Nissan and try to kill should clearly be a recall

The other interesting fact was the Nissan active cruise was much closer to the BM's safety values - missing a lot of quite irritating stuff Merc use. If someone pulls in front the Nissan doesn't react - pretty much at all - no matter how close - the Merc will quite urgently try to re establish the 2 second rule... not sure how they are allowed to do what Nissan manage - other times it reacts much later than it should - like slowing for traffic that clearly isn't accelerating

Never had a problem with my Omega ... maybe it was the steering box rather than rack you didn't like. I know the amount assistance could be altered on it ... 3 settings.

Neither did I. In fact it was a bluddy good car but not as good as the 24V Senator that followed it

 

[EmilysDad]

Neither did I. In fact it was a bluddy good car but not as good as the 24V Senator that followed it

Funnily enough that's exactly the same conversation going on on the Omega's forum just now!

I loved my 24V Senator ..... trouble was, the tin worm did too.

 

[Botus]

The trouble with electrically assisted steering racks is that they feel dead compared to hydraulic systems so you are starting from a low base mechanically. My S212 electrically assisted steering rack felt very odd when I bought it the self centralising was almost overpowering on fast bends and a bit alarming but I’m glad to say over the years this has diminished to quite a good feel. My BMW 4 series electrically assisted rack is also bedding in nicely at 13k miles as the hard bushed suspension is starting to give a little bit I still think the loss of feel isn’t worth the slight saving in mpg

my sister has a 2014 Focus with electric steering clearly nowhere near as good as her indoors with her Mk2 - the 2014 one would just as you say fight to straighten up - quite a few times made me wobble about as it snatched it from my grasp and sent the car the wrong way

I wasn't getting that in the Nissan (almost the opposite) over come a bit of resistance straight ahead, then it all too easily smashes on a lock when you wanted a few degrees of correction

As for the Omega in the other later posts - the steering was OK, the steering box did get slop which I was used too - it was the lack of response, being a heavy beast at 1800kg with squidgy high sidewall tyres - the 1995 one was actually a much better car on its 15" wheels - then they did the first face lift and the 1999 car had new suspension bushing alongside 16" wheels and somehow it ruined it - never drove a square one on 17". Aboard the Holden Commodore or the Chevy Lumina got a steering rack, a proper engine and square edges to the rear window.... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holden_Commodore

I nearly chopped the 335d in for a 2009 VRX but it was a bit tacky inside, no xenon's and they never got a self dimming interior mirror for heavens sake !!!

 

[Craiglxviii]

Interesting comments Craig about customer ratings involved in car design/ergonomics but I can’t help feeling that Botus has a good point here in so far as the steering is the main interface with the driver and needs to be right all the Qashqai owners I know are women which may be a clue to why it has excessively light steering. My son’s partner has one and she loves it

No. The actual target Qashqai owner is a 34yo architect, married to a nurse with two children aged 12 and 7. Im seriously not making it up, that’s how exact and specific they go when assigning target demographic for different vehicles/ platforms.

Nothing to do with women. The issue is that the average Japanese man finds typical European car steering feedback uncomfortably heavy and tiring after 2+ hours behind the wheel (which is what that particular design standard is based around).

One might well ponder why this is an issue for the Qashqai which is designed specifically for the European market (by a British design team, in Beds…) but that’s because the evil Japanese overlords won’t allow them to challenge ride & handling design standards. Plus, I think the steering module is cross carline with X Trail which is sold as a premium Japanese market SUV.

I should point out that it isn’t “customer ratings” that are used, there are teams of engineers specially trained to score the various performance aspects and these guys will go all around the world to the different engineering tech centres to carry out that work.
One amusing example- the key for the Infiniti Q30. This was a last gen A Class (W174) with a different body & interior. Now, Nissan had never before launched an Audi A3 hatchback competitor- yes, it’s in Qashqai’s basket but only to keep things honest. So they decided to err on the side of caution. Studies had shown that the touch feeling of coldness was a premiumness enhancer. Interior door handles, gear knob if alloy etc. Metal has a different tactile feel to plastic. So, this car got metal interior door release handles and metal inserts along the ignition key. This was initially a standard MB key from Hutchinsons with a different logo. Not anymore, we can get another 5 points on the driver’s position tactile feedback score with metal inserts… tooling budget was gone so they had to go for milled aluminium. For 40k cars per year. Shaped blocks that replace the silver strips down the edges of your ignition key…. Mental. I think that added €20 per key.

 

[Snake Charmer]

@Craiglxviii Thanks for taking the time to post very interesting.

 

[oigle]

Wonder if Botus's rental had some specific issues? Overinflated tyres maybe? Poor steering geometry? Faulty radar cruise? Bit ordinary to judge the whole model on one driving experience in one car.

 

[Craiglxviii]

Wonder if Botus's rental had some specific issues? Overinflated tyres maybe? Poor steering geometry? Faulty radar cruise? Bit ordinary to judge the whole model on one driving experience in one car.

It sounds likely. Q steering is lighter than German marques, but not overly one-finger light. In my own experience they’re pretty pleasant cars to drive.

 

[keefysher]

MrsP has a Qashqai. 58 married to an Engineer with a 15 year old daughter. I drive it too. It drives very well, very comfortable, steering is no lighter / heavier than my GLE. The radar has the same quirk as the GLE where on a particular narrow lane to my mothers both cars pick up a telecomm box overgrown with grass etc and sets the warning off, without braking.

Neither of us drive like its a race to a stop. Observe what is going on around us. Prepare for stupidity of other road users as far as practicable. The Q is a nice place to be, given the deal we got on purchase more than happy.

MrsP had an X-Trail previously, apart from the agricultural diseasel it was again a nice place to be. A Fiat 500C was another good runaround car she had, only swapped out as daughter grew to 5'10" so a bit cramped with 3 up.