Sat Nav upgrade

[BillyBoy]

I have a W210 Estate (E320 CDi Avantgarde) which currently has the Audio 10 Radio/Cassette unit fitted with the 6CD changer in the boot. I am vaguely considering installing sat nav, and am looking at the Audio 30 APS unit as it will fit without major modifications and still integrate with the steering wheel etc. My questions are:

1) Is the Audio 30 APS unit avaialble as a Radio/Cassette or only as a Radio/CD? I have seen mention of both, but the brochure seems to indicate that the cassette option is only on the non-APS Audio 30.

2) Supposing that I can get a Radio/Cassette version (or bite the bullet and give up having a cassette player) what is the effort in installing the unit? Presumable I would need some sort of antena, or is this already fitted? Is there anything else that changes or are the wiring loom connectors etc. standard regardless of the unit fitted? Is it a dealer job or could I do it myself? (I'm reasonable with wiring etc. and have fitted plenty of car radios and car alarms in the past) Is it a non-starter idea from the word go?

Any pointers / advice gratefully received.

Bill

 

[robertjary]

I've recently upgraded from the Audio 10 CD to the Audio 30 APS. The Audio 30 comes in 2 versions, the basic Audio 30 with cassette and the Audio 30 APS which has an internal CD player and SatNav.
On my 2002 W210 estate, I've had to feed the wheel sensor signal from the front passenger sill to the back of the radio (terminal A1) and connect the GPS antenna. I tried to use an underdash GPS MB antenna but could not get the Audio 30 APS to find any satellites (the screen in my car is metallised and this effectively filters the GPS signal). My car has the MB phone option so I've had to remove the existing roof mounted phone antenna and replace it with the combined external GSM/GPS MB roof antenna. I aslo bought the extension cable to connect the GPS antenna to the back of the Audio 30 APS. This cable, part number A210 440 26 05, also has the wire and connector for the speed signal attached. All you then need is to get the instrument cluster programmed so that the navigation instructions are duplicated on this display.
As long as you've happy removing some interior trim and connecting some cables then its fairly straightforward.

 

[rcrossland]

Functionality

I too am looking to put SatNav into my 02 C220 Estate and currently have what is called I think an Audio 10 system. My main concern at the moment is finding out the functionality of the MB DVD based SatNav solution. How up to date are the maps? For about the same money (been quoted £2k by the dealer) I can get a latest Pioneer dvd based unit with touch screen, post code entry and much more. Does the MB equiv has Points of Interest? Re-routing? etc

Any guidance much appreciated!
Rob

 

[Arnie]

Hello,

If you want OEM, then the one to get is the Mercedes Audio-30 APS. These are available new for £1500 in the UK, or £900 in Germany or about £400 on ebay in good condition. (Code numbers: BE47xx series, see below.)

The Audio-30 APS is only available as a CD version (not cassette), because it uses the CD drive as a ROM drive for navigation CDs.

Fitting is very simple and mostly plug and play, but you will need to get a set of special radio-extraction keys from your dealer (£5). In addtion to the existing wiring, you may need to provide a Speed signal (wheel sensor), a reversing signal and then find a place under the dash (if you have a normal windscreen) for the magnetic GPS antenna. The antenna can "see" through plastic and glass, but not metal.

If interested, I can give you the contact email of a guy who imports them from Germany to sell on ebay in the UK. You can probably get a good one from him directly for £400,. I paid £600 (over the odds) for mine from him by bidding, before I realised that it wasn't just a one off that he had and that he does it as a business. I found that £400 is the typical price, for unit with latest map CDs and antenna. Send me an email.

However, make sure you get the latest CD's (MB, Nov 2003, version-7, 2 discs) as they cost up to £200 otherwise. A GPS antenna will be about £60, if not included.

These units do not have a map display but they have by far the best voice guidance of any unit, with a natural female or male voice and they provide a text route list and graphical turn by turn information. I have compared one to the ICN630i portable Navman unit and it beets it hand down, because its turn information is always spot on at the right time. This is because these units also have a built-in Gyro and a speed (distance) signal input from the wheels, which portable units do not.

One the route is calculated, you can eject the Nav CD and use the CD drive fro Music CDs

If you have an E-class, your speed signal is normally only transmitted on the vehicle's CAN-bus so you may need an adapter to extract this signal for the satnav unit, unless you can find the signal elsewhere. These adapters are, unfortunately, quite pricy (budget £100).

see: http://www.dobbertin-elektronik.de/navigate/can-bus/can-ausw.htm#Mercedes Benz

However, this speed (wheel sensor) signal is essential for proper operation. But, before buying, you may be lucky, so check Pin-1 on your existing bottom ISO radio connector (this signal is also sometimes used to increase the volume automatically when you go faster).

A reversing signal is said to be required, but is not essential, unless you travel backwards a lot, in which case the unit can get momentarily confused.

Also, unlike on the similar Becker Consumer units, the TMC feature does not appear to be enabled for the UK on the Audio-30 APS units with latest operating software and maps. This is an important point.


Below is an edited extract from my answer to a previous Post:


I've replaced an Audio-10 CD on an SL with an Audio-30-APS.

The speed signal normally connected to the Audio-10 for volume control (GAL) works very well.

The reversing signal, again, is not required uless you go in reverse for long distances, which may then momentarily confuse the APS-30.

Just Plug and Play. The APS-30 will work just fine and is really amazingly accurate with the existing wiring.

You will, of couse, need to find a location for the GPS antenna. The normal one has a 2m cable and you can probably hide it under the dash, infont of the windscreen (pointing-up). Test for reception, before fixing permanently.

If you buy a new APS-30, then no problem. However, if buying on ebay (about £300-£400) or s/h bear in mind that:

1.) if you want the in-dash display to work as well as the radio panel display and steering wheel controls, you will need a CAN-bus version. This is available on MB OEM (Audio-30 APS) versions only.
The CAN-Bus is only available on latest model numbers, which are BE4715 and BE4716 for the standatrd DIN-fit units and BE4717 and BE4718 for the rounded-fascia units (new C-class etc.) I think that there is no significant difference between the early and later CAN-bus units.

2.) The units are all made by Becker and similar Becker versions (Traffic Pro, BE4720, BE4725 etc) can now be had for a lot less (new~£600) than the APS-30. They have, however slightly different menu functions and a few more features (more gimmicks) than the OEM APS units and so the navigation CD's, because they also contain operating-system software, are not compatible between Mercedes Becker/OEM and Becker consumer units. The Becker consumer units do not have a compatible CAN bus so you cannot have the in-dash display. The consumer becker versions, do, however, have a removable front panel for security and come in different lighting colours. However, I think that they no longer produce a white light version to match MB instrumentation lighting, but the yellow on black is probably better (BE 4720 or BE 7820).

I am not sure, but I think that the later Becker Traffic-Pro High-speed units (BE782x series and later, BE79xx) may now be using Tele-Atlas maps, which are cheaper for Becker to provide, but are not as good (nowhere near, from what I read) as the NavTech maps on the original Trafiic Pro (BE47xx) and MB units, but they do have faster processors. The closest model in appearance to the OEM MB Audio-30-APS, is perhaps the BE 7802 DTM, which is now discontinued, but can still be found for about £500 new.

The Becker 4720 and DTM series maps are already version-8 and the operating system software update has a post-code entry feature, which the MB Audio-30 APS units do not.

3.) The in-dash diplay unit will need to be re-programmed to display the Audio-30 APS navigation information pages. A dealer can do this.

4.)For the Mercedes Audio-30 APS, the service menu needs to be used to fully calibrate the unit. (Go to destination input menu and hold buttons 2 and 7 pressed.) This allows you to choose the model of car and confirm the tyre size for better accuracy.
see here:

http://www.megacomm.de/telematik/mercedes/aps30/mb_aps30_allgemein.htm


Some Test Reviews:

http://www.crutchfieldadvisor.com/S-hosdnjpv9Yy/reviews/trafficpro_system.html?page=1

http://www.hifichoice.co.uk/review_print.asp?ID=2084


See also:

For general intro to MB radio/Nav options and other links:
http://www.whnet.com/4x4/radios.html

Where to find the speed signal, if not already on the connector:
http://www.siemensvdo.com.au/files/502527_Vehicle Speed Pulse Locator Nov-2003.xls

For installation and set-up details (APS-30 is very similar to Becker BE4720):
http://www.becker.de/beckerCC21/www_root/documents/gps_antenne_1397_850_4720_Einbauanl_CD5_0.pdf

For typical Becker prices:
http://www.caraudiodiscount.com/acatalog/becker_navigation.html

Becker home:
http://www.becker.de/beckerCC21/www_root/index.jsp?language=En

German pricing:
http://www.dobbertin-elektronik.de/navigate/navigate.htm

http://www.megacomm.de/menu/menu_telematik_mb/menu.htm
http://www.megacomm.de/menu/menu_telematik/menu.htm


Model Summary:

BE4705: First version Becker/Mercedes OEM Audio-30 APS without CAN-Bus: DIN size; NavTech maps.

BE4708: Becker/Mercedes OEM Audio-30 APS : DIN size; NavTech maps. Special version for VITO etc installation at 30-60 degree tilt. (Normal units specified for 0-30 degrees).


BE4715: Becker/Mercedes OEM Audio-30 APS with CAN-Bus: DIN size; NavTech maps.
BE4716: latest Becker/Mercedes OEM Audio-30 APS with CAN-Bus: DIN size; NavTech maps.

BE4717: Becker/Mercedes OEM Audio-30 APS with CAN-Bus: Rounded fascia; NavTech maps.
BE4718: latest Becker/Mercedes OEM Audio-30 APS with CAN-Bus: Rounded fascia; NavTech maps.

BE4720: Becker traffic-Pro with yellow-black illumination: recommended if no in-dash display required (No CAN-bus); NavTech maps.

BE7802 Becker Traffic Pro DTM: Closest look/match to Audio-30 APS, but No CAN-bus: Discontinued, but nice; NavTech maps.

BE7820: Becker traffic-Pro High-Speed with yellow-black illumination: Recommended if no in-dash display required (No CAN-bus).

BE79xx: Becker Indianapolis: newer styling: fast processor with larger internal memory: (No CAN-bus).

BE7800: Becker On-Line-Pro with yellow-black illumination: Has integrated hands-free GPS phone. Recommended if no in-dash display required (No CAN-bus). NavTech maps.

BE78??: Becker/Mercedes OEM Audio-40 APS with CAN-Bus: DIN size; MB version of becker 7800, above (GPS telephone).


BE????: Becker/Mercedes OEM Audio-50 APS : new standard offering, but not a standard DIN-size front panel.

 

[Arnie]

Re: Functionality

I too am looking to put SatNav into my 02 C220 Estate and currently have what is called I think an Audio 10 system. My main concern at the moment is finding out the functionality of the MB DVD based SatNav solution. How up to date are the maps? For about the same money (been quoted £2k by the dealer) I can get a latest Pioneer dvd based unit with touch screen, post code entry and much more. Does the MB equiv has Points of Interest? Re-routing? etc

Any guidance much appreciated!
Rob

Rob,

There are only two main companies supplying Map data: NavTech and Tele-Atlas. The former is by far the best (greatest coverage- by area, not population and most accurate), but many manufacturers offer the later company's data because it's cheaper. MB used to use TA, but now uses NavTech, like BMW and all the rest.

You can find retrofit MB kits here:
http://www.megacomm.de/menu/menu_telematik_mb/menu.htm (use Google translator, if necessary)

Read the test-reviews on the Pioneer (do a GOOGLE search):
>Great screen, good for movies.
>Good graphics
>Decent maps: (can't remember which provider)
>BUT...Crap navigation algorithms, and TMC is an extra module.

I would look at VDO-Dayton, if you're not going to fit an original COMAND (Bosch-supplied); or perhaps Alpine (as used by BMW USA), if you have to. The japanese units seem to have many gimmicks, but are lacking in the fundamentals.

More importantly, make sure you have the TMC feature and that the Nav maps are TMC enabled (provider has to pay royalties). The UK is a late entry into TMC and so not all UK maps are enabled for TMC messages.

Note also that not all Post-Code entries are alike: Some work off only the first few digits and then you still have to enter the road and sometimes, even the town.

 

[kkmfo]

Sat Nav - recommendation?

Firstly - brilliant info from Arnie. Just what I've been looking for...almost.

I am thinking of getting single DIN sat nav and have identified the Becker 7920 unit as the one I think I want.
It retails at about £900 here but German websites are selling it for about £560.

I am struggling to work out what software/version I should be getting.
Arnie's comment - Tele-Atlas not as good - but is it still worth getting?

 

[Arnie]

Nick,

The 7920, seems like a good choice, especially for an 129 SL, where you don't need/have the in-dash display.

If you buy the unit new, it will come wit the latest s/w. The discs contain:

1.) Update to radio
2.) Update to navigation operating system (OS)
3.) coded map data.

The discs have different family version numbers because the different units have different operating-system software (different processors and different controls). However, that is not to say that the map data information (TA or Navtech) is fixed by the operating system software, and maybe you can create a disc with only the Navtech maps to use after you have installed the OS. (However, I have read that if you try to use a Becker disc with OS in a APS unit you will completely screw it up.) It could actually be that soon, all update maps from Becker will be of the Tele-Atlas variety, or they may continue to provide Navtech for the 47xx family. I don't know, but maybe Becker can answer this.

From what I read on the Becker site, it implies that the newer 79xx units come with Tele-atlas S/W although this is not very clear, and appears to be contradicted elsewhere. However, there is a news story published that Becker have signed an agreement with Tele-atlas.

Anyway, the difference between teleatlas and navtech should not be too bad in Europe, especially in areas, where not too many new roads have been built.

The versions are:

Becker Navigation Map Version 2 For On-Line ProThis Version Only Works In The Becker On-Line Pro 7800
Version 2 Software Includes Navigation By Postcode



Becker Navigation Map Version 8 For Traffic Pro and DTM
This Version Only Works In The Becker Traffic Pro 4720, 4725, 4733, 4751, and all DTM Navigation systems, Version 8 Software Includes Navigation By Postcode



Becker Navigation Map Version 3 For Traffic Pro HiSpeedThis Version Only Works In The Becker Traffic Pro Hi-Speed, 7820, 7825, 7823, 7851. Version 3 Software Includes Navigation By Postcode


All maps, list the following, so maybe they are all from the same provider (??):

Countries Covered For Mapping:

Austria, Andorra, Belgium, Czech Republic, Denmark, Eire (limited), Finland, France, Germany, Italy, Lichtenstein, Luxembourg, Monaco, Netherlands, Norway, Portugal, San Marino, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland, Vatican City, United Kingdom

Languages Supported, English, German, French, Italian, Dutch, Spanish, Swedish

Dynamic routing with TMC, Traffic Message Channel, in Austria, Denmark, Holland, Northern Italy, Sweden and Switzerland

 

[BillyBoy]

Thanks for the replies, especially Arnie, I couldn't have wished for a more comprehensive, helpful and detailed response.

Arnie, I would be grateful if you could let me have the contact address for the chap you spoke of that imports the units. Please email it to wm004d5629@blueyonder.co.uk.

Cheers,

Bill

 

[GordonTarling]

Looking to do a similar upgrade in my car. Great info Arnie!

One question - will the Audio 30 units work with the boot mounted MB CD changer that has the optical interface?

Thanks

Gordon

 

[Arnie]

Yes, the MB units have the D2B optical bus and should work without problems. (The Becker commercial units also have the D2B)

 

[web-rover]

30 APS unit

Fantastic info Arnie - many thanks. I'm getting (I hope) a model 4716 unit via Ebay to slot in to a 2001 CLK instead of the Audio 10 unit - they seem to be going for around £350-£400 with GPS aerial and CD. The unit comes with version 5.0, but I don't know whose software that is.

The idea of TMC seems fab but your details suggest that the UK isn't covered. Have I read that right? However, if I missunderstood and it is available, what map CD would include it? Whose is the best software for mapping with TMC that runs on the 4716?

 

[Arnie]

The latest maps for the APS are Version-7 (NavTech).

I think that they are only TMC enabled for France, Switzerland, Italy and one or two other countries.

The UK's TMC system is only being operated by one or two broadcasters (eg Heart FM in london), but I think that currently, as far as I know, only the VDO-Dayton system with NavTech Maps is fully TMC-enabled in the UK. You can use these VDO map-discs in most VDO-Dayton OEM systems (BMW, Renault etc), but I don't think that either MB or Becker have yet released TMC-enabled UK maps for their systems (Royalty fee issues).

While the map data comes from either NavTec or Teleatlas, it is formatted to suit the particular GPS unit and so you will need to purchase the correct compatible discs. Because of different menu and control layouts, the Becker and MB discs are not compatible even though the internal hardware is 99% identical (Can-bus difference). This is because these discs contain updates to the operating system as well as the map data.

However, Michelin publish a range of discs for these and other units.

 

[web-rover]

Maps

Thanks Arnie for that extremely complete answer. I guess I'll have to wait for the TMC to be issued for MB/Becker. However...

Would you say it is worth upgrading maps from 5.0 to 7.0? For example, I would have no idea whether version 5.0 would include the Manchester ring road, when all the road numbers changed. It's a lot easier when other systems give their maps dates. Is the upgrade only to include new roads or is there more functionality? You mentioned the Michelin maps in passing - any good?

Any guidance (from anyone) as to the best places to find the upgrade CDs?

 

[Arnie]

There should be a date along with the version number. For the MB units, version-7 is dated November 2003. Becker is on version-8 (for the 47xx series) and this dates to April 2004. Both are with NavTech maps.

I have the Becker V-8 discs and a copy of MB V-7. I am going to try to create a CD containing just the Becker V-8 map data-file to see if it works in the MB APS unit that I have.

As I mentioned, I have not tried it-and don't wish to, but apparently acording to other info on German websites, if you try to use a Becker disc, complete with Becker OS, on an APS unit it becomes permanently screwed-up (due to it trying to load the wrong OS)

The APS Version-5 may be 18 months old.

The new Becker discs add post-code searches to the menu and also seem to update the radio functions. However, the post-code feature is only 4/5-digits and so you still need to enter the street and sometimes, town.

The V-7 discs for te APS also go through an operating system upgrade, on the first time they are loaded. I have not noticed any new menu features, but probably the navigation algorithms have been improved. In any case I cannot see that MB would want to add or change menu functions as this might mean changing the user manuals.

More on TMC:
http://www.gpspassion.com/forumsen/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=6479

 

[web-rover]

TMC

Again, thanks Arnie. Blimey, what do you do for a day job - you seem to live and breath this stuff!

The article you pointed me to seems to suggest that TMC is working in the UK, and I seem to remember reading somewhere else that Jazz FM, a national station, carries TMC data piggybacked on it's signal.

I took a look at the Becker website last night but it seemed pretty useless. I could only find info on its current units and nothing on maps.

I'm interested to hear how you get on with burning the disc with version 8 maps on version 7 OS. Now, if only Becker would get on with implementing TMC for the MB units...

I popped into my local car audio ftting station today and picked up some Becker keys for £4 and to my delight discovered that I've got the requisite D2B wiring to my CD changer (I may have completely misused that term, but I almost sounded as though I knew what I was talking about didn't it?). So I am definitely going to get the APS 30.

I've seen one person report that his windscreen blocked the GPS signals. Seeing as I've got a cabriolet I'm wondering whether this is a common problem and if so, what I can do about it. I can hardly stick the aerial on the soft-top. What experience have people had out there with gps aerials hidden on top of the instrument cluster or above the glovebox casing?

 

[Arnie]

Hi,

the windscreen is only a problem if you have one of those metalised (Blue-purple/gold) heat-reflecting ones. The signal cannot then get through the metal film. (You can check if you mobile phone works in the car, when close to the windscreen.)

However, there are many different shapes and sizes of antennas, even wafer-thin credit-card size types that you can stick anywhere. Also with an extension cable, you can pass it through the bulk-head, following any existing wiring holes and fit it under the plastic front bumber mouding or somewhere just in front of the windscreen, under the plastic mesh.

 

[web-rover]

Phone muting or connection to APS 30

I'm in the process of fitting my just-bought APS 30 in place of Audio 10. I used to have my Nokia car kit mute lead connected. Everything seems to work except the radio muting no longer works when the phone's in use. The 4720 instructions I've got says that a phone speaker output can be passed through the Becker unit, but I'm not sure if this works on the 4716. This would be great as with the hood down I often can't hear a caller on the feeble Nokia speaker in the footwell. The Mute or Speaker function is set through a User Menu.

(added) However, I can't see how to get into the User Menu (which also allows for changing display settings, Gala and the phone settings Mute/Speaker etc and is seperate to the Service Menu). The 4720 asks you to hold down the tone key for two seconds but this doesn't work on the 4716.

How do I get into the User Menu?

 

[Arnie]

(Go to destination input menu and hold buttons 2 and 7 pressed.)

see here:

http://www.megacomm.de/telematik/mercedes/aps30/mb_aps30_allgemein.htm

You can use Google language tools to translate

 

[web-rover]

Service menu and User menu

Thanks Arnie
Nice to hear from you again. Is there a Service Menu AND a User Menu, like on the 4720?

However, I can't seem to get the Service Menu up. I go to the menu when you select country, town or road, then press the 2nd and 7th multifunction keys together and hold them down. Nothing happens...

I wonder if it's stuck in demo mode. How do I get out of it?

And on another note - does anyone have a photocopied manual they could 'lend' me? I'm happy to pay for copying and postage costs.

I wonder if it might be worth me putting this up as a new post as this existing one has gone on for a long time?

 

[web-rover]

Service menu

Doh! It's hold down key 2, then hold press key 7. I was trying to press both at the same time. Now I've got the manual downloaded ( www.soula.co.uk ) I've learned a whole lot more.

Thanks for all your help.