Spare wheel nuts disaster

[CharlesMeredithIII]

I'm not a total mechanical moron but the other day I had to change the wheel on my wife's 97 E avantegarde. Jacked it up got the bolts off, put on the spare startted to replace the nuts, 10 minutes later struggling to tighten them. 5 minutes later had a nasty sinking feeling when though only half on they wouldn't come off again. 1 hour later had a nastier sinking feeling when I had a quote of £650 plus recovery for the repair. When I got it back there were warning stickers plastered all over it about using the short nuts with the steel spare and a blister pack of nut strapped to the spare so that no mistake could be made. Tried to get MB to help with the bill on the basis that the factory warning were not sufficient but stone walled.

My local MB garage are great guys and I'm not wanting to cut up with them but I feel a bit let down by the company. The garage knew what I'd done before I told them the whole story, apparantly happens all the time which is why they've had these warning stickers made.

Anybody heard of this problem?

 

[wivenhoe]

Same problem - but no bill

My friend has a C Class and had a puncture last week - couldn't find any bolts so rang a MB stealer and was told it would be ok to use the 'long' ones. Same result as yours, but as the guy he spoke to in the Stealer admitted telling him to use the wrong ones MB are paying the full £ 650

 

[malcolm E53 AMG]

I replaced the steel spare on my 2000 reg E class with a new alloy bought off e-bay for £50. I Know accountants are running car manufacturers nowadays but to not supply the same spec spare wheel on a quality car is going too far.

I didn't realise that it was possible to damage the hub in a such a way, surely MB should accept some responsibility, as this item was certainly not engineered failsafe. At least your post will act as a warning to others.

 

[CharlesMeredithIII]

I had three exchanges with Daimler Chrysler whatever they're called. In the last I sent them photoghraphs of the warnings that the dealer had now fitted but nothing. Everybody sees my point but MB don't give a care.

The point is we've all repaired a hundred flats in our life and we don't need somebody changing the rules because they're too mean to put in an alloy spare. There's a difficult to find mention in the manual and there's a warning sticker on the tailgate on my estate which is 8ft in the air with the boot open! Now that's going to be a great help when you're stuck on the hard shouder of the M6 in the pouring rain at midnight with three children and a baby screaming and you suddenly find that a puncture has turned into a full on breakdown. Thank you Mercedes thank you very very much!!!!

 

[andy_k]

Sorry Charles but I'm with MB on this one why should they be held responsible for problems you have caused?

It's in the manual, which you are urged to read before driving the car, there's a sticker on the boot lid which may be 8 feet but you've still read it - so how can anyone else be to blame?

Andy

 

[CharlesMeredithIII]

My point is simply that I did do it which and other people regularly do as well. That can only mean that there is not sufficient safeguard to stop this happening. This is not a question of blame its a question of what actually happens in a real life situation. The fact that dealers are having their own warning stickers made is enough evidence of that. Wivenhoe above pointed out that a member of the Mercedes staff even got it wrong.

 

[robbi-wan]

Sorry Charles but I'm with MB on this one why should they be held responsible for problems you have caused?

It's in the manual, which you are urged to read before driving the car, there's a sticker on the boot lid which may be 8 feet but you've still read it - so how can anyone else be to blame?

Andy

It seems that the opportunity for error belongs to MB, who designed/built the car in the first place, having taken a dumb decision in the design room after a rather extended pub lunch. How many other car manufacturers mandate the use of non standard wheel nuts for the spare?
It may well be in the manual, and yes it should have been read, but that is no excuse and is also extremely far removed from common sense.
So for my penny's worth, I'm with charles.
Rob

 

[malcolm E53 AMG]

In a controlled environment, say in a place of work, a nice warm and well light workshop with adequate time to deal with the job I'm sure there isn't a problem. On a motorway in circumstances we all dread and especially if you are new to the vehicle there is a huge problem.

Manufacturers/Accountants need to wake up to these situations and provide adequate failsafes to engineer these sort of problems out. I bought a mercedes not because of good dealers or price but because I expect engineering excellence which MB are in danger of sacrificing with mass market atitudes like the one you've just experienced.

If you don't want to let the situation rest (bearing in mind other pressures in life), perhaps a small claims court would decide in your favour. It may be worth a consideration. Alternately tell MB that you are writing to the Times Motoring supplement and consumer groups, this has worked for me in the past.

Good Luck!

 

[robbi-wan]

This particular issue is one that should have been flushed out at the design FMEA (Failure Modes and Effects Analysis) stage, the solution implemented ie.put it in the handbook, is not sufficient (in my opinion) to reduce the almost guaranteed failure and the high costs associated with it.
It is not too much to expect that motor car design is well thought out, given the original price tags that MB's come with.rob

 

[Bolide]

Wheel nuts

You have to bear in mind that we're talking about a car nearly 10 years old. The original warning signs may have been lost, the pack of wheel nuts for the spare lost or separated from the toolkit and the alloys may be retrofits

There's no real right or wrong here. Alloys are deeper so take a longer bolt and the non-threaded shank is designed to be the correct length for an alloy wheel. I imagine the damage occurs when the non-threaded shank is tighted against & into the hub. I don't think you can easily design this out - you just have to try & prevent the mistake from happening


Nick Froome
www.w124.co.uk

 

[andy_k]

I think one of the major problems is that we live in a "blame culture". After all we are all perfect so it must be somebody else's fault when it goes wrong.

Put petrol in a diesel car? Well, it's obviously the fault of the garage for putting the pumps so close together. How many times have you seen that one on forums? Every single one of them blame somebody else and refuse to accept rsponsibility foir their own stupidity and inability to differentiate between the words "diesel" and "petrol"

With the wheel nuts, it is mentioned in the manual and that is there to read in a controlled environment like a nice warm house etc BEFORE you need any of the important information that's included in it. This is why the first page usually recommends you read the manual to fully familiarise yourself with the car.

It's not an issue unique to mercedes, nor is it new. Alloy wheels nearly always require different wheel bolts to steel ones and spacesaver wheels often require different bolts to standard rims.

Just because somebody else has done it doesn't make it any less silly or any more the responsibilty of somebody else

Every now and again, we have a responsibilty to put our hands up and say "I've done something really stupid which is my fault and if I'd read the manual or instructions I could easily have avoided this rather large bill I am now faced with"

Andy

 

[robbi-wan]

Some fair points raised Andy, however the majority of cars on the road are 'standard' and i assume MB's are no exception. Given this to be the case, manufacturers have the duty to think through the ownership of the vehicle through successive owners.

How many people have splashed out on a new car and ran straight into the house to read the manual???

I agree that owner stupidity (petrol/diesel etc) is not the responsibility of any manufacturer to prevent, but at the same time, those things that are within their powers to prevent (wheel nuts etc) should be sorted.
The fact that it happens so regularly leads to one of 2 conclusions:

MB got it a bit wrong with OE specced cars
MB owners are a bit on the dim side.

I doubt that the latter is universally true, as stupidity has a habit of rearing up in the most unlikely of places, whilst the former seems more likely.

On any brand new car at the prices of MB's, it is reprehensible that time was even spent deciding on a space saver spare wheel with different sized bolts. It would have been cheaper in charles' case to have a car with no spare wheel: you can get towed a huge distance for £650.

 

[CharlesMeredithIII]

You have to bear in mind that we're talking about a car nearly 10 years old. The original warning signs may have been lost, the pack of wheel nuts for the spare lost or separated from the toolkit and the alloys may be retrofits

There's no real right or wrong here. Alloys are deeper so take a longer bolt and the non-threaded shank is designed to be the correct length for an alloy wheel. I imagine the damage occurs when the non-threaded shank is tighted against & into the hub. I don't think you can easily design this out - you just have to try & prevent the mistake from happening


Nick Froome
www.w124.co.uk

The car in question ahd the original never used spare. The pack of nuts was buried at the bottom of the well in a very small plastic bag. They were never in the toolkit. I have never looked in the spare well with a torch to check that some vital part of the car was hiding.

The car was bought by me with a full years signature warranty.

Couldn't they attach spacers to the steel wheel to make up the extra thickness needed?

 

[CharlesMeredithIII]

Some fair points raised Andy, however the majority of cars on the road are 'standard' and i assume MB's are no exception. Given this to be the case, manufacturers have the duty to think through the ownership of the vehicle through successive owners.

How many people have splashed out on a new car and ran straight into the house to read the manual???

I agree that owner stupidity (petrol/diesel etc) is not the responsibility of any manufacturer to prevent, but at the same time, those things that are within their powers to prevent (wheel nuts etc) should be sorted.
The fact that it happens so regularly leads to one of 2 conclusions:

MB got it a bit wrong with OE specced cars
MB owners are a bit on the dim side.

I doubt that the latter is universally true, as stupidity has a habit of rearing up in the most unlikely of places, whilst the former seems more likely.

On any brand new car at the prices of MB's, it is reprehensible that time was even spent deciding on a space saver spare wheel with different sized bolts. It would have been cheaper in charles' case to have a car with no spare wheel: you can get towed a huge distance for £650.

The wheel in question is not a space saver. It's as wide as the alloy it replaces! It's just a cheper steel version on the same tyres as the other four.

 

[CharlesMeredithIII]

I think one of the major problems is that we live in a "blame culture". After all we are all perfect so it must be somebody else's fault when it goes wrong.

Put petrol in a diesel car? Well, it's obviously the fault of the garage for putting the pumps so close together. How many times have you seen that one on forums? Every single one of them blame somebody else and refuse to accept rsponsibility foir their own stupidity and inability to differentiate between the words "diesel" and "petrol"

With the wheel nuts, it is mentioned in the manual and that is there to read in a controlled environment like a nice warm house etc BEFORE you need any of the important information that's included in it. This is why the first page usually recommends you read the manual to fully familiarise yourself with the car.

It's not an issue unique to mercedes, nor is it new. Alloy wheels nearly always require different wheel bolts to steel ones and spacesaver wheels often require different bolts to standard rims.

Just because somebody else has done it doesn't make it any less silly or any more the responsibilty of somebody else

Every now and again, we have a responsibilty to put our hands up and say "I've done something really stupid which is my fault and if I'd read the manual or instructions I could easily have avoided this rather large bill I am now faced with"

Andy

Andy That was my first thought but the more I looked into it the more I thought that this was a really stupid bit of engineering. I am very anti the blame culture you mention and very willing to accept responsibility. I asked Mercedes to pay for the parts which was less than half the bill.

I think what it came down to was they did not want to set a precedent as there are probably hundreds if not thousands of owners out there with the same gripe.

 

[robbi-wan]

The wheel in question is not a space saver. It's as wide as the alloy it replaces! It's just a cheaper steel version on the same tyres as the other four.

Hmmmmmmm
In that case, the ball would appear to be firmly in only one court.......

 

[paulcallender]

I can't help thinking that the spare being different (steel) than the others (alloy) would have immediately raised suspicions, in my mind.

PS How did you get the puncture? As I understand it, tyres don't just puncture. You either drive over something sharp, or you let them become deflated, then they overheat and fail.

 

[tom7035]

Like Charles, I'm not quite a mechanical moron either (though there are some I suppose who might disagree!) but what I can't quite fathom is why, once the studs have 'bottomed out', can't they just be unscrewed out again? Did the threads strip? If so this must have taken quite a bit of brute force. Was an attempt made to drive the car with the long bolts in or am I missing something here?

 

[190D]

I'm not a total mechanical moron but the other day I had to change the wheel on my wife's 97 E avantegarde. Jacked it up got the bolts off, put on the spare startted to replace the nuts, 10 minutes later struggling to tighten them. 5 minutes later had a nasty sinking feeling when though only half on they wouldn't come off again. 1 hour later had a nastier sinking feeling when I had a quote of £650 plus recovery for the repair. When I got it back there were warning stickers plastered all over it about using the short nuts with the steel spare and a blister pack of nut strapped to the spare so that no mistake could be made. Tried to get MB to help with the bill on the basis that the factory warning were not sufficient but stone walled.

My local MB garage are great guys and I'm not wanting to cut up with them but I feel a bit let down by the company. The garage knew what I'd done before I told them the whole story, apparantly happens all the time which is why they've had these warning stickers made.

Anybody heard of this problem?

You have to ask yourself these questions

1/ Did you not read the user manual?
2/ Did you not see the sticker that is in the boot?
3/ Did you not wonder why you had bolts shorter than the ones you were taking off?
4/ Did you not notice the difference in thickness between the alloy and the steel wheel?
5/ Why did you keep tightening the bolts when they were tight and the wheel was still loose?

 

[190D]

Difference in wheel bolts