Unnecessary work on brakes (possibly)!

[lulu]

Hi All,

Just before I get out of my pram at my local Mercedes dealer......

Does anyone know what the wear limits are for the front discs/pads on a 2005 C220 CDI (coupe). The dealer replaced them after telling me on the phone they were down to the metal. I didn't think they were, but wasn't in a position to pop back and check for myself (equally I know what metal on metal sounds like and couldn't hear it myself). They told me they would put the old discs & pads in the boot. After getting home, I discovered they weren't in the boot. A quick phone call later and they assured me they would get them out of the bin and keep them for me.

I had new tyres put on the week before and both the tyre fitter and myself thought there was about 4-5mm left. (The tyre fitter said they would only need doing at 3mm).

Also, would anyone know if there are there brake pad wear indicators on this model. Needless to say there was no indication on the dash lights that pads needed attention.

All input gratefully appreciated

Lulu

 

[television]

Hi All,

Just before I get out of my pram at my local Mercedes dealer......

Does anyone know what the wear limits are for the front discs/pads on a 2005 C220 CDI (coupe). The dealer replaced them after telling me on the phone they were down to the metal. I didn't think they were, but wasn't in a position to pop back and check for myself (equally I know what metal on metal sounds like and couldn't hear it myself). They told me they would put the old discs & pads in the boot. After getting home, I discovered they weren't in the boot. A quick phone call later and they assured me they would get them out of the bin and keep them for me.

I had new tyres put on the week before and both the tyre fitter and myself thought there was about 4-5mm left. (The tyre fitter said they would only need doing at 3mm).

Also, would anyone know if there are there brake pad wear indicators on this model. Needless to say there was no indication on the dash lights that pads needed attention.

All input gratefully appreciated

Lulu

Hi Lulu, yes your car has got the two wire sensor system that cuts the wire when the pads are coming to the end of their life, leaving 3mm to 4mm or 1000miles to get them replaced.

Once the sensor puts the light on,it will stay on until the pads have been replaced.

I think that you have been done,or shall we say had over

 

[st13phil]

I think that you have been done,or shall we say had over

Hang on a minute, before we jump to conclusions...

It's possible that the pads were actually more worn than Lulu thinks, but only inspection of the replaced parts will make that clear. And if the discs were on or below their wear limit and the pads were well worn only a fool would replace the discs and put the original pads back on. A more likely alternative is this...

What's the service interval on a 2005 C220 CDI Coupe? circa 15k miles? OK, so with (say) 4mm left on the pads the pad warning light comes on approx 1-2k miles after the last service and the customer complains to the MB dealer because they now have to take the car in again to have the pads changed. In other words, the technician took the decision that the pads wouldn't last until the next service and advised replacement. Nothing wrong with that. However, between Lulu and the technician is Service Reception and it appears that they may to have over-egged the pudding by phoning up and saying that the pads were on the metal rather than just that they would need replacing in the next month or so and does the customer want the work done now.

Not leaving the old parts for inspection naturally raises suspicions, but it could still be genuine. My advice is to examine the replaced parts first and only then decide how to react.

 

[stevesey]

Part of the problem with 15K service intervals it that the dealer can nearly always say "the pads won't last until the next service, shall we replace them while we've go it in".

 

[television]

Ok I missed the bit that said that the disc were changed as well.



Sure you dont fit old pads on new disc.

How will she know that she gets her old parts back that they were hers

were the disc worn down, what was the mileage, the tyre place would have noticed if the disc were worn

 

[st13phil]

Part of the problem with 15K service intervals it that the dealer can nearly always say "the pads won't last until the next service, shall we replace them while we've go it in".

Absolutely. And it's the owner's decision whether to answer yes or no to that question. With cars that have a pad wear indicator system, the risk of saying "don't change them" is low in the sense that it just means another trip to the workshop before the next service is due.

Ok I missed the bit that said that the disc were changed as well.

No problem.

How will she know that she gets her old parts back that they were hers

Now that's the $64k question. All Lulu can do now is rely on the honesty of the dealer - which is exactly what she would have had to do if the parts had been left in the boot of the car as originally promised. One line of questioning I would be tempted to pursue with the service manager though is "if the pads were worn to the metal as I was told, why didn't the pad wear warning system alert me a couple of thousand miles ago?"

the tyre place would have noticed if the disc were worn

Would a tyre fitter put a micrometer on the discs? I wouldn't have thought so. So unless they were very obviously very worn I doubt the tyre fitter's opinion on the state of the discs would be relevant.

I know that I'm new around here and I respect the opinions of those who have been around this forum and Mercedes-Benz cars much longer than me, but there does seem to be a common theme of not trusting MB Main Dealers to be honest. Are they really that bad? Or is it a mixture of one or two rogue dealers plus the high labour rates that they all charge that raises suspicions? Whilst I've found a couple of VW main dealers I've used in the past to have been, how shall I put it, less than 100% concerned about customer satisfaction, I've never seen any evidence of deliberate lying or carrying out unnecessary work.

 

[MIW615]

Part of the problem with 15K service intervals it that the dealer can nearly always say "the pads won't last until the next service, shall we replace them while we've go it in".

This is the key issue which Mercedes, and other manufacturers play on - In my opinion sometimes it's better to wait until the pads warning light comes on and then replace the pads and discs if necessary - why throw away pads that still have 3000 - 4000 miles left on them.

Regarding the discs, as long as they haven't worn down below the wear limit there is no reason to replace them, all that is needed is to remove the "lip" on the outer edge of the disc and then de-glaze the disc surface.

 

[television]

Absolutely. And it's the owner's decision whether to answer yes or no to that question. With cars that have a pad wear indicator system, the risk of saying "don't change them" is low in the sense that it just means another trip to the workshop before the next service is due.No problem.Now that's the $64k question. All Lulu can do now is rely on the honesty of the dealer - which is exactly what she would have had to do if the parts had been left in the boot of the car as originally promised. One line of questioning I would be tempted to pursue with the service manager though is "if the pads were worn to the metal as I was told, why didn't the pad wear warning system alert me a couple of thousand miles ago?"Would a tyre fitter put a micrometer on the discs? I wouldn't have thought so. So unless they were very obviously very worn I doubt the tyre fitter's opinion on the state of the discs would be relevant.

Often tire firms are brakes as well, the lip can be seen and is a good indication of the wear thats taken place

I know that I'm new around here and I respect the opinions of those who have been around this forum and Mercedes-Benz cars much longer than me, but there does seem to be a common theme of not trusting MB Main Dealers to be honest. Are they really that bad? Or is it a mixture of one or two rogue dealers plus the high labour rates that they all charge that raises suspicions? Whilst I've found a couple of VW main dealers I've used in the past to have been, how shall I put it, less than 100% concerned about customer satisfaction, I've never seen any evidence of deliberate lying or carrying out unnecessary work.
That fact that you are new is good and welcome here, it is a forum and all views help to make it.
Lets say that she had another 10k from the original pads, were the disc that bad that they just changed them, why could not they have advised her that the work would need doing shortly, well we dont know now as its too late.
There are good and bad dealers as you will find out here, and some have a very bad name, the lady could have saved a few hundred by shopping around.

Its great having you on board

 

[Glenn Smith]

I have heard that MB dealers do tend to replace pads and discs before strictly neccessary, if the pads were getting low then they should have spoken to the customer, obviously the pads had been looked at bt the tyre fitter, but did he check the inside one aswell, although this one has the sensor it may well have worn more, saying they were down to the metal was probably not true and the fact the old ones were not available for inspection suggests they were not unserviceable. There is no reason to change pads because they won't last to the next service (who knows if they won't) and again this should be the customers choice based on the facts (this is difficult if you are not experienced enough to take a look yourself)
Baring cracks or other damage i would expect 70-80k out of a set of discs, and around half this for pads, however this depends on the quality of components and how the brakes are used.

 

[st13phil]

Its great having you on board

Thanks, Malcolm, and I do understand the points you make in your posts above. Maybe you're just more suspicious that I am

There is no reason to change pads because they won't last to the next service (who knows if they won't) and again this should be the customers choice based on the facts (this is difficult if you are not experienced enough to take a look yourself)
Baring cracks or other damage i would expect 70-80k out of a set of discs, and around half this for pads, however this depends on the quality of components and how the brakes are used.

I totally agree that the Customer should be given the information and be allowed to make the choice about replacement of wear parts like brake pads. When my father managed a repair workshop he always insisted that the decision on replacement of parts lay with the customer if an element of discretion was involved, but if the customer said no then that was always noted on the final invoice. As he always said, you'd be surprised at the number of customers who would happily use the "you did a full service on my car a month ago and now the brake pads/shoes have worn out and taken the discs/drums with them" line and expect you to replace the damaged discs/drums for free. I also concur on your comments about relative disc and pad life - as a rule of thumb, with modern friction materials, you can normally work on two sets of pads to one set of discs - but the actual life in miles is very dependant upon the usage pattern of the car (lots of town miles vs long motorway hauls), how the brakes are used, and whether the car has a manual or an auto transmission.

 

[television]

I also concur on your comments about relative disc and pad life - as a rule of thumb, with modern friction materials, you can normally work on two sets of pads to one set of discs - but the actual life in miles is very dependant upon the usage pattern of the car (lots of town miles vs long motorway hauls), how the brakes are used, and whether the car has a manual or an auto transmission.

On the forums we normally say that 2 sets of pads to the disc, and also as you say it depends on the way the car has been driven

 

[jberks]

I agree - my experience is that disks last 2 sets of pads these days. As a set of pads generally lasts me 25k, disks last around 50k, though that depends vastly on how and where you drive.
As it's a 2005 assuming its the first set of pads then no, the disks can't possibly need changing. As for whether the pads needed doing, well it's a grey one. I've had pads replaced despite the light not going on yet. (can't remember seeing the warning since my C class). Its normally been a phone call from the garage to say they will need doing in the next few thousand and would I like it doing now to avoid having to take it back later. I normally say yes to save the hassle. After all, it may cost me £15 worth of unworn brake pad but it would cost me more to have to revisit the garage within a few weeks. Also, in theory, it should be cheaper to have it done there and then as you've already paid for the wheels to be removed. (Bet it isn't though!) They should ask.

 

[lulu]

Hi All,

Saw my dealer this morning......was provided with the pads.....and... they were not down to the metal, at all.
One of the wear indicators had broken (warranty claim?!), and the other was intact and quite a few miles from going through. They still had roughly the sort of thickness of material I remembered (4-5mm) from a week ago. They argued that it wouldn't have made it to the next service, (not in dispute), and reckoned it would have only lasted 100 miles more. I beg to differ when you consider the thickness you get when new, and, that these had done 38000 miles to leave 4-5mm.

We had a discussion about what I wanted them to do. They tried a counter offer, which was never going to work. After all, obtaining money by deception is a criminal matter, and I can't see Mercedes wanting that sort of a problem.
In the end matters were resolved COMPLETELY to MY satisfaction without having to take any further action or involve anyone else.

I do wonder if they don't consider the average Mercedes owner is so loaded that they just wont care, so gullible that they believe everything they're told without question, or, so stupid that they wouldn't even understand.
(Uh-oh, bet that last comment starts a new thread)

Thanks again for your input
Lulu

 

[television]

Hi All,

Saw my dealer this morning......was provided with the pads.....and... they were not down to the metal, at all.
One of the wear indicators had broken (warranty claim?!), and the other was intact and quite a few miles from going through. They still had roughly the sort of thickness of material I remembered (4-5mm) from a week ago. They argued that it wouldn't have made it to the next service, (not in dispute), and reckoned it would have only lasted 100 miles more. I beg to differ when you consider the thickness you get when new, and, that these had done 38000 miles to leave 4-5mm.

We had a discussion about what I wanted them to do. They tried a counter offer, which was never going to work. After all, obtaining money by deception is a criminal matter, and I can't see Mercedes wanting that sort of a problem.
In the end matters were resolved COMPLETELY to MY satisfaction without having to take any further action or involve anyone else.

I do wonder if they don't consider the average Mercedes owner is so loaded that they just wont care, so gullible that they believe everything they're told without question, or, so stupid that they wouldn't even understand.
(Uh-oh, bet that last comment starts a new thread)

Thanks again for your input
Lulu

thanks for posting back, I wonder what the offer was

 

[David Nock]

Only a slight relationship to this problem but I've just looked in the Haynes manual for our Mazda RX7, and the wear limit stated for the front pads is 1mm!!!!! I will probably double that for my own peace of mind, plus the car dates from the days before alarm wires were introduced. Nevertheless it was a reasonably fast machine in it's heighday and still has to stop safely, just as a modern car has to.

 

[lulu]

Refund on my credit card! (and I dont need to worry about the brakes for a couple of years!)

 

[Rory]

Ever the cynic, I would say that you caught them out, 95 times out of 100 they'd get away with it (but how many of those customers would be burning up inside feeling they'd been ripped off?).

The dealers can't win though. Took our Jazz for service the other day - it's done 27K of town driving so was expecting the "front pads need changing" call but it never came. When I went to pick it up they'd noted the pads have approx 5000 miles to go and quoted £85 to change them - I came away feeling miffed that I'll have to go back again to get them done!

 

[st13phil]

Saw my dealer this morning......<< snip >> In the end matters were resolved COMPLETELY to MY satisfaction without having to take any further action or involve anyone else.

So they were pulling a fast one! Well done for following it through and getting a refund.

This is completely up to you, obviously, but I would still write a polite letter to the Dealer Principal telling him/her that although this matter has been brought to a satisfactory financial conclusion, you remain extremely disappointed that such a thing should occur at their dealership and invite them to outline what steps they are taking to ensure that neither you nor any other customer finds themselves in a similar position in the future.

BTW, (and I understand if you'd rather not say) who are the dealership in question?

 

[busby20]

Regarding the "limited" life of worn pads - say 3/4000k before next service etc. what if you have the same situation as my spouse, whereby this kind of mileage would take her over a year to complete? - so, why replace when she could defer the costs for another year?

 

[television]

Regarding the "limited" life of worn pads - say 3/4000k before next service etc. what if you have the same situation as my spouse, whereby this kind of mileage would take her over a year to complete? - so, why replace when she could defer the costs for another year?

This is why some of us get umpty when the work is carried out before the deadline.