Up the age??

[truthfindergeneral]

Up the age....

Nahhhh. Introduce an IQ test before the actual driving test.

 

[roadhog]

haha! no chance! my beast may be temperamental, even refusing to start when switched off when hot for a minimum of 2 hours (till its cool again) but not much leaves it from the lights, espeially if you also want pure comfort and almost 40mpg at 70mph on the motorway! i want a CAR not a plastic turd with 4 huge wheels with black rubber bands around them, (1 at each corner!) to ride around in. and i dont need to make my exhaust loud, then have to get a THUMP THUMP THUMP stereo coz my car is so loud i can no longer hear the radio!

That's as may be but it's not attracting the Laydeeez is it? :lol:

 

[Alex M Grieve]

Up the age....

Nahhhh. Introduce an IQ test before the actual driving test.

Great idea. Indeed, if you could make that retroactive you could resolve our traffic congestion problems at a stroke!

 

[johnboy615]

Great idea. Indeed, if you could make that retroactive you could resolve our traffic congestion problems at a stroke!

Then how many of us would have to give the car keys back???

 

[roadhog]

Dear exchangeandmart, is this an official survey you're conducting and if so when will it be published? I have just read a similar thread of yours (or at least someone with the same username) on a Volvo forum. If you are indeed carrying out such survey it might have been courteous to advise forum members beforehand?

 

[Xtractorfan]

When they passed their test, the first thing we did to celebrate was to go for a supervised drive on the M3 including: joining the motorway safely (merge at 90, then speed up), observation, lane usage. They each said that the difference in increased speed and reduced thinking time was a step change from even their quickest journeys off motorway.

And the results - wife passed test in 1971 and has not had a collision. Son passed test in 1989 and has not had a collision. Daughter passed in 1983 and has had a couple of minor dents. The family average is therefore somewhere off the bottom end of the national scale for driving problems.

Is it possible that their lack of incidents may be just down to the fact that no one has ever caught up with them......

 

[ncooper]

This thread reminded me of a driver's guide I wrote for another forum some time ago.It took me ages and when I posted it I was accused of plagiarism.
It wasn't,just a few observations about what I see every working day.

I am sure it resembled other posts which made observations about driving standards,after all they are there for all of us to see,unless we think the following really are rules.......


General rules for driving

1)Pay no attention to your own driving,it's for you to critisise others for their failure to do what you know they should.

2)Never consult the highway code,it's all wrong anyway.

3)If you see a speed camera,race up to it and brake sharply to well below the speed limit just before you cross the white lines. When doing this,never check your mirror(s).


General rules for roundabouts.

1) on no account indicate to let other road users know your intention.

2)enter the roundabout in whichever lane you see fit,it makes no difference,you will be changing lanes several times before you exit anyway.

3) bear in mind you have priority over everyone else so you need not give way to anyone.

4)if anyone gets in your way or indicates displeasure because you have just sliced across their path,blow your horn and/or flash your headlights,put up one or two fingers and if at all possible,try to ignore all the other traffic while doing this.

5)do not look to the left or right,it doesn't matter what's there,because it's their job to get out of your way.

6)do not exit the roundabout unless you can cut someone else up while doing so.


Motorway Rules

1)When joining a motorway,accelerate to the speed you wish to achieve and move from the slip road directly into the flow of traffic.It is for traffic on the motorway to get out of your way.

2)Once on the motorway,move immediately to the right,especially if there are many vehicles behind you and none in front.

3)Never drive in the nearside lane of a motorway,regardless of how many miles ahead of you the next vehicle may be.

4)If you see anyone following 2 or 3 above,move up to a position one metre from the rear of their vehicle and illuminate main beam headlights.
(Should they move out of your way,accelerate as much as necessary to adopt the same position behind the next available vehicle.)

5)If someone is doing this to you, you know the speed limit and are doing it. On no account move over. If the following driver overtakes to your left,follow the roundabout code with fingers and horn.
(Remember,if you can see further than the back of the vehicle in front,you are not close enough.)

6a)When leaving the motorway,wait until the second marker from your junction before reducing your speed and crossing all lanes to your nearside.
6b)To exit the motorway correctly,it is necessary to cross the white hatch markings with the solid white line round them under maximum braking.
If this can be achieved under the front bumper of a large goods vehicle,so much the better.

Roadworks and other hold ups.

1)If approaching a queue of standing traffic,move immediately to the emptiest lane, the other traffic will have moved over to make way for you.

2)While queuing,change lanes as often as possible,always ensuring you force another vehicle to give way, you will always gain several inches over the other traffic.(If you see another driver doing this,on no account let them into your lane.)

3)When you see a sign indicating that a lane or lanes are closed,do not move out of that lane until the orange cones are rubbing the side of your vehicle.If possible,ensure that there is a vehicle in the lane into which you are moving.
(The larger they are,the easier they are to ignore.)

3)If you do pass the scene of an accident,do not waste the opportunity to attribute blame to the driver of at least one of the damaged vehicles.
You will know what happened,based on your expertise as a top class driver.

Remember the expert driver's motto, "I'm right and they're all wrong."
__________________

Regards,
Nick.

 

[exchangeandmart]

I think this reflects a lot of the opinions voiced in this thread (which i fully support), but some new research was published today in the car news and it seems that it is indeed a lack of respect which is the biggest problem amongst drivers. Whilst this may be a larger problem in younger drivers, that by no way means that it is specific to them, and people of all ages can be guilty of this. Perhaps a way of addressing this would to be to introduce a new phase to the testing process that is currently used, to tackle this specific issue, in order to produce a much better bunch of quality drivers in the future; something we really need seeing as our roads get busier and busier all the time! What do you reckon?

 

[LSD]

What do I reckon? I reckon that training, however good, will only be absorbed by those wanting to learn from it. Equally, amongst skillful and experienced people, natural talent aside, the differences are then usually due to inherent personal commitment and attitude, i.e., enthusiastic drivers interested in their cars and cars generally, usually tend to be more devoted to the quality of their driving.

More fines and "initiatives" will do just what they've always done to improve things... nothing.

I think the lack of respect thing is so endemic in many of the population, I wonder just what would work now. Many seem to revell in being gobby a-holes, whose opinion is that anyone disagreeing with their driving can just f*ck off, irrespective of who's at fault.

Personally, I never find younger people to be any worse than the rest in this respect.

 

[ncooper]

What do I reckon? I reckon that training, however good, will only be absorbed by those wanting to learn from it. Equally, amongst skillful and experienced people, natural talent aside, the differences are then usually due to inherent personal commitment and attitude, i.e., enthusiastic drivers interested in their cars and cars generally, usually tend to be more devoted to the quality of their driving.
More fines and "initiatives" will do just what they've always done to improve things... nothing.

Can't agree with this,I'm afraid.

As I have posted elsewhere on this forum,I have been driving to and from Spain a great deal.
Years ago,Spain was one of the most dangerous places in Europe to drive and the government finally recognised this and acted.
The roads have been improved beyond all recognition and driver training vastly improved but more importantly,so has the police force.
The traffic section used to be in tiny numbers and had little knowledge or interest in road traffic rules.
Not so now,far more police and highly visible,both day and night.
They are properly equipped with the latest technology and know how to use it.
They also have the power to issue draconian on the spot fines.
The result,Spain is a far better place to drive in,drivers are,in the main, courteous and careful and the death toll has plummeted.

In the end,improved overall driving standards will only result from peer pressure,one of the most powerful influences on us all.
First,however,we need to train a new generation of drivers to a high enough standard to exert this pressure.

Attitudes can be changed,for example,think back 20 years to when,if a man lost his licence to drink driving,his mates in the pub would sympathise and perhaps offer lifts until his ban expired.
Not so now,there's been a complete reversal and drink driving is now seen as shameful,as it should have been in the first place.

Regards,
Nick.

 

[LSD]

I know what you're saying Nick. Things have improved in Spain yes - I'm going in the morning for five days touring round on motorbikes

I was actually more referring to this country, England, and the impact of "Respect" days and similar; it is so typical of things here to "address issues" with novelty approaches that do nothing - it's bigger than that. Token measures do more to demonstrate that authorities are being proactive than actually improve things.

We were in fairness already a long way ahead of Spain and many other places, many years ago, in this regard. We still have (for now) a much better infrastructure in a general sense that's been there much longer.

I feel we are on the other side of the curve going downwards, and that I think is mainly due to the total lack of pride in driving and a detached attitude by an increasing number of drivers.

Urban driving in particular has become a slow-motion stop-start detached affair, along often deliberately restrictive road layouts, narrowed roads, too many traffic lights etc. Driving for the less interested is not different or demanding enough to sitting on the sofa.

I hope they don't go too far down our path in Spain yet. It's still actually enjoyable to drive or ride on the quieter, open (and increasingly better-quality-than-ours) roads without being hassled, targetted or forced down to soapbox pace.

 

[exchangeandmart]

I think I would have to agree with Nick, especially with the attitudes towards drink driving, that is so true. It really isn't that long ago when it was not really seen as a bad thing, but more of an inconvenience if you were caught. Thanks to some very good campaigns, the general attitude of the public really has changed. By applying the same principles to training younger drivers over the course of many years (I wouldnt expect anything to change overnight) I think there is a good chance we could change a lot of attitudes and even driving behaviour. Would you disagree LSD?

 

[coxyhog]

I was actually more referring to this country, England, and the impact of "Respect" days and similar; it is so typical of things here to "address issues" with novelty approaches that do nothing - it's bigger than that. Token measures do more to demonstrate that authorities are being proactive than actually improve things.

You just described New Labour perfectly.

 

[LSD]

By applying the same principles to training younger drivers over the course of many years (I wouldnt expect anything to change overnight) I think there is a good chance we could change a lot of attitudes and even driving behaviour. Would you disagree LSD?

Of course not - with proper and realistic training/changes/commitments - not the lightweight symbolic stuff. Much training now focuses on what you can't do, what's dangerous and "wrong", not how to be competent and able. I'd also prefer it was handled by someone/thing concerned with genuinely improving travel as against economic manipulation of the road system.

 

[3146bj]

Having read the comments on this thread, two points come to mind:

- the problems everybody writes about are not limited to the UK. We have exactly the same faults with our systems.
- All us old farts who have been driving since the Model T was new can solve all the driving problems known to man.

However, before we solve the problems, we need to define what they are. It is not longer good enough to analyse statistics derived from accident reports prepared by coppers who just want to go home after a 12 hour shift. It is a whole lot easier for the poor old plod to tick the “excessive speed” box than to investigate what really went wrong and he/she doesn’t have the training anyway. The senior managers, be they police command or pollies, have to carry the can and institute proper procedures instead of popping up for a 30 second photo op quoting their “speed kills” mantra every time an accident makes the TV news. Determine the true causes and then something useful can be implemented.

To give an example of the “ticking the box” syndrome: I was involved in an investigation of an accident where a car crashed at night on a good, straight road, killing the driver. The police accident report stated: “the car left the road and rolled 7 times when the driver went to sleep”. There was no mention of the other occupant of the car; a dead kangaroo in the back seat. Unfortunately, the ‘roo had just about decapitated the driver on his way through.

So, investigate accidents properly to find out the true problems with the systems and then we have a chance of instituting some effective changes.

Rant over (‘til next time).

 

[Alex M Grieve]

Having read the comments on this thread, two points come to mind:

- the problems everybody writes about are not limited to the UK. We have exactly the same faults with our systems.
- All us old farts who have been driving since the Model T was new can solve all the driving problems known to man.

Excellent post thank you. As you suggest, root cause analysis is not that tough. All you have to do is keep asking why. As in this case, the driver did not die because he fell asleep, or because the car rolled over, he died because a flying kangaroo knocked his head off.

Sadly, because so many forms have boxes ticked citing speed as the issue, the "experts" refer to this as evidence, and justification for lower and lower speed limits - which have not affected the death rates on UK roads.

I might be "the young Victor Meldrew", but I admit to being an old fart of the sort who knew Henry Ford at kindergarten. The reason I have reached old fart status is because I anticipate the stupidity of others, and make way for them. I think I have had a good journey when I can recite the 4 or 5 instances where, if I had not taken evasive action, drivers who did not even know I was there or realize the problem, would have collided with me. If I was more Teutonic and insisted on holding my right of way regardless, I would have been dead years ago.

How we get other people out of their self centred bubble, make them more aware of their surroundings, give them the skills to anticipate and avoid danger, and the temperament to let them do it - these are the challenges.

Sadly, as an old fart, I am probably automatically excluded from helping with the solution, as I am not saying anything they would understand, or worse still, that they would want to hear.

 

[Dosco]

Excellent post thank you. As you suggest, root cause analysis is not that tough. All you have to do is keep asking why. As in this case, the driver did not die because he fell asleep, or because the car rolled over, he died because a flying kangaroo knocked his head off.

Sadly, because so many forms have boxes ticked citing speed as the issue, the "experts" refer to this as evidence, and justification for lower and lower speed limits - which have not affected the death rates on UK roads.

I might be "the young Victor Meldrew", but I admit to being an old fart of the sort who knew Henry Ford at kindergarten. The reason I have reached old fart status is because I anticipate the stupidity of others, and make way for them. I think I have had a good journey when I can recite the 4 or 5 instances where, if I had not taken evasive action, drivers who did not even know I was there or realize the problem, would have collided with me. If I was more Teutonic and insisted on holding my right of way regardless, I would have been dead years ago.

How we get other people out of their self centred bubble, make them more aware of their surroundings, give them the skills to anticipate and avoid danger, and the temperament to let them do it - these are the challenges.

Sadly, as an old fart, I am probably automatically excluded from helping with the solution, as I am not saying anything they would understand, or worse still, that they would want to hear.

As Always Alex - finger on the button.

 

[television]

Thanks Alex,,and this is how I survive, just by stopping or slowing down through someone else's error

When a thread starts on the old,,I will join in more

 

[coxyhog]

I think progressing from motorcycles to four wheels helps people appreciate the outside of their bubble.

 

[ncooper]

Having read the comments on this thread, two points come to mind:

- the problems everybody writes about are not limited to the UK. We have exactly the same faults with our systems.
- All us old farts who have been driving since the Model T was new can solve all the driving problems known to man.

However, before we solve the problems, we need to define what they are. It is not longer good enough to analyse statistics derived from accident reports prepared by coppers who just want to go home after a 12 hour shift. It is a whole lot easier for the poor old plod to tick the “excessive speed” box than to investigate what really went wrong and he/she doesn’t have the training anyway. The senior managers, be they police command or pollies, have to carry the can and institute proper procedures instead of popping up for a 30 second photo op quoting their “speed kills” mantra every time an accident makes the TV news. Determine the true causes and then something useful can be implemented.

To give an example of the “ticking the box” syndrome: I was involved in an investigation of an accident where a car crashed at night on a good, straight road, killing the driver. The police accident report stated: “the car left the road and rolled 7 times when the driver went to sleep”. There was no mention of the other occupant of the car; a dead kangaroo in the back seat. Unfortunately, the ‘roo had just about decapitated the driver on his way through.

So, investigate accidents properly to find out the true problems with the systems and then we have a chance of instituting some effective changes.

Rant over (‘til next time).

Among the other things I did while a police officer was to be a founder member of our Accident Investigation Branch.
It was a fascinating extension of my stint in the traffic department.
As an Accident Investigator,I received a great deal of additional training and once qualified,I attended the scenes of far too many fatal and serious (injury) accidents.
It was my job to ascertain the cause and gather evidence for a coroner's inquest or to support a prosecution if appropriate.

Sitting here,I can remember probably all of them,such accident scenes tend to stick in the mind.
I felt that by doing my job properly I was helping the bereaved families deal with their grief,everyone wants to know exactly how their loved one(s) died and why.

I cannot think of a single fatal accident where the fundamental cause was not driver error.That is one reason why I feel so strongly about proper driver training and why I am so frustrated at the constant playing around with speed limits,paint etc,etc,as I wrote earlier.

As to kangaroos,I never saw one,a cow once and a horse but no kangaroo.
The reason for the formation of Accident Investigation Branches was to get rid of the woefully casual way that fatal accidents had been investigated (or not,as per the kangaroo).
It has worked but is also often why a motorway will remain closed for hours after the accident.

The authorities have all the statistics they need,what they lack is someone with the bottle to attack the real problem,
teach people how to drive,not how to pass a test.

Regards,
Nick.