vegetable oil

[richard t]

how many of us are running our diesels on vegetable oil? with due care and attention in fact mercedes do very nicely on it , largely due to the quality of the fuel pumps fitted. I am the engineer with a company who produce a very good quality fuel from recycled vegetable oil and am interested to know how people feel about it- bear in mind the following- you invalidate any warranty on your car, you will need to fit a heat exchanger and extra fuel tank to run on 100% veg oil, and duty consessions on vegetable oils are slim. why on earth do it i hear you cry!
*you do not produce a net contribution to greenhouse gasses*
*it is an entirley renewable resource*
*there is more power ( higher calorific value) in veg oil*
*many continentals have been using it successfully for years*
*our oil is 75p litre duty paid*
*you can recreate that chip van odour in any location*
*your vehicle will run on mineral diesel no probs if veg oil not available*
*youll be able to run your merc on 50% (and possibly higher) veg oil/mineral diesel without any modification*
i am interested in particular with those people using diesel with common rail engines, but interested in any comments from anyone

 

[davidsl500]

Hi Richard,

So when you recycle the veg oil do you just clean it up or do you modify it further to reduce the viscosity? Do i understand correctly that if you use a 50/50 mix of veg and normal diesel that no mods are needed? - so does it "mix" well?.

Its no good for my 5 Litre Petrol V8 but I was thinking about playing around with a veggie mix in a diesel generator that I have acquired recently.

 

[kim220]

I recently bought a 220 diesel so can i run it on this vegtable oil with no modifacations.

 

[shaggy]

BE VERY CAREFULL:!:

ive got a c220 1995 and the man i use for diesel related repairs (injectors,pump etc) has told me not to do it due to the different viscosity of certain oils can cause starting problems and in extreme sercumstances causes engine failure he's had engines with the heater fitted where the heater has failed and when tying to start have damaged the cam/crank.
im not saying dont do it what im saying is do your homework first and ring 3 dealers of these heating systems to see if they all tell you the same story and then only use someone who guarantees their work
its the same with lpg theres the cowboys then the pro's you pays your money you take your chances

P.S. im not having a pop at you richard t this is just what ive heard from a diesel specialist with experience of problems with cooking oil
if im totally wrong please inform me otherwise;-)

 

[richard t]

you are both right- its is the viscosity of the veg oil that causes the problems, in firstly ( the fuel filters if very thick!) the injection pump then in the cold cylinder as when cold it tends to produced a globular mist rather than the fine atomised mist of mineral diesel- this can be got around by using a 50% veg/deisel blend which gives it a similar viscosity to diesel or to make full use of the fuel, fit a heat exchanger ih the car heater circuit that heats the fuel prior to the filter and injection pump. further to this you will require a second 'start up' fuel tank containing mineral diesel to use when cold, then electric solenoids to flick a switch and change over veg oil once warm ( you also need to purge the veg oil out at the end of the day).As for your generator idea it is excellent, because you have far more scope to create a bespoke heated fuel tank and burn really quite low grade waste veg oil, so long as it is properly filtered and water removed from it- ideally you too may need a second tank to start up on then switch over to veg oil once enough heat is generated to heat your fuel tank or heat exchanger. it really is very simple and if properly heated there is not too much to fear from burning the oil- it has far better lubricity than diesel- in fact low sulphur diesel has very poor lubricity and the feeble 'biodiesel' that is so much talked of( at a piddling 5% vegetable derived fuel )has better lubricity thanks to its vegetable component. if you are seriously interested then take a look a www.dieselveg.com or our fuel at www.longma.co.uk good luck richard
p.s my old 300gd has the most agricultural injection pump ideal for the veg oil, and it certainly has much more go when running on it

 

[Cooky]

Interesting thread this. I have successfully used Tesco's cheap cooking oil in a Citroen XUD engined C15D van by mixing it in with normal road diesel at 25%. I didn't bother doing it in the winter.

The engine ran fine and there were no starting problems. I can't say that I noticed a smell either. It did save a few pence, but after a while I just couldn't be bothered. I suppose if I'd done some research and sourced a bulk supply things might have been cheaper.

Cheap as chips? :mrgreen:

 

[Mr Chippy]

There are a number of ways to make diesel from used vegitable oil, and the method used by bio-power results in a fuel that will burn in any diesel engine without modification. Some diesels are better than others, but Mercedes are particularly good. Added benefits are that this type of fuel burns better so there is more power, and thereby better MPG. There can be cold starting issues in the depths of winter, but this can be got round with a double hit of the glowplugs. Its not normally a problem at any other time of year.

Its the reason I bought a merc in the first place. The chap in charge of bio-power runs his Merc very well on it. For those that are interested there is a list of local dealers on the web site .

 

[richard t]

i dont really agree with you there mr chippy( we make fuels similar to biopower), and a double hit with the glowplugs is not a good idea- it is indicative that the oil is too globular and not really wanting to burn. unburnt fuel can end up either in the sump contaminating lubricating oil or fouling piston rings and generally dirtying things up. i think to make the best of the potentially bright future for veg oils, then users should take care, use sensible blends or modify your car properly- it is all too easy to give the technology a bad name it dosent deserve, and just sticking it in and waiting till something goes amiss is hardly fair- yes mercedes are among the best at utilising veg oil,but you should be aware of the potential to cause damage if not used correctly.

 

[shaggy]

this is what i was saying ,we have 2 people who seem to know what they are talking about through experience who can't agree so what chance has the 'average' man got of getting it right :!:
im waiting until somebody can tell me "right this is what you do etc" and guarantee it wont damage my car then i may give it a go until then im not risking my engine or fuel pump on somebodys "well it works for me" philosophy

 

[richard t]

yes i fully understand that, but there are parameters of safe use - buy a good quality properly filtered and conditioned fuel in the first place, and you should be quite safe in blends up to 50%- go the whole hog and do a conversion and bingo- in Germany you can go to the local farm, fill up with cold pressed oilseed rape oil, and off you go! now thats fantastic- the difference is the political will is there to do it and the tax consession on biofuels far greater- it is worth the germans converting their car soley on economic grounds without even considering enviromental issues. The point is, cars will run on veg oil no problems, and a very sound conversion that is safe and reliable can be had for £450-£650 depending on your engine size. there is a fair chance that given a fair wind we may adopt a more european approach. However,BIG players have vested interests in producing RME , which is a highly processed and safe diesel-like vegetable fuel, but is really just a process to produce a consistent product , and is missing the point -vegetable oils burn quite nicely thankyou, without a massive industrial process and all the enviromental implications that has.But, these interests are desperate to undermine our simple approach and dismiss us as cottage industry,tax dodging engine wreckers! I hope i have supplied you with food for thought anyway, and just a passing piece, if you are filling your car with low sulphur regular diesel ,then you are possibly heading for fuel pump failure as it has very poor lubricity!- best stick a drop of veg oil in with it!, cheers Richard.

 

[Mr Chippy]

Sorry I didn't mean to cause confusion here.
I'm not suggesting that a double hit on the glow plugs is a good thing, nor is it the answer to cold starting, just a get you going solution if caught out on a very cold morning.

The chap behind Bio-Power has been running his Merc on 100% used veg oil for four years now without causing any damage to his engine, so I'm only suggesting that its possible to go higher than 50%. Even in mid winter. It only takes 5% of Dino diesel to prevent problems like this down here in mild Bournemouth, but people I know further north find that 20% Dino is enough to cure cold starting problems in more chilly climes.

Bio-Power do have a FAQ page if people are confused and want to know more about it.

As an aside, some car manufactures have now recognised the importance of Bio Diesel and have stated that their cars can run on 100% without affecting warranties. Europe is way ahead of us here in the UK for alternative fuels, and sadly that is due to the Environment Agency as much as the Tax situation. The EA are more concerned with tying fuel makers up in masses of red tape, rather than protecting the environment. Then we have to pay a reduced amount of duty, 29p per Litre, whilst in Europe there is 0% duty on any non-petrochemical alternative to Diesel.

 

[shaggy]

yes i fully understand that, but there are parameters of safe use - buy a good quality properly filtered and conditioned fuel in the first place, and you should be quite safe in blends up to 50%- go the whole hog and do a conversion and bingo

richard t
so what you are saying is DONT buy supermarket 43p ltr cooking oil????
buy the 75p a ltr 'conditioned' fuel so what's the difference??

 

[richard t]

now i do hope youre not suggesting that you put supermarket oil in, and fail to pay the customs and excise their due!- ours is 75p litre, carefully cleaned and filtered,plus a few simple additives to improve acetane/detergent properties and supplied DUTY AND VAT paid!

 

[pascal]

now i do hope youre not suggesting that you put supermarket oil in, and fail to pay the customs and excise their due!- ours is 75p litre, carefully cleaned and filtered,plus a few simple additives to improve acetane/detergent properties and supplied DUTY AND VAT paid!

Hi Richard
So if one refines it at home (as per website), how would you pay the tax. How can a Customs & Excise inspector know whether whats in your tank was bought (tax paid) or refined in your backyard in a 45 gallon drum. Or what if you drove back from Germany with a full tank (no Duty) Seems a little bit of a grey area.

 

[richard t]

i'm not absolutley certain quite how, but you make a regular declaration to customs and excise saying how much non duty paid fuel you have used and then cough up the appropriate rate- they rely on your honesty. i dare say if they wanted to look very hard at someone who was obviously using far more than they were paying duty on ,they may ask for receipts and test the contents of your tank- but it would undoubtedly be very difficult to prove. I think you can find all the info on the customs and excise website.
I might add that we sell our fuel through metered forecourt pumps so all duty is paid on sales through a highly accurate device at point of sale!!!!

 

[paulcallender]

I looked into this too. As I understood it, buying cooking oil from the supermarket (or the cheapest wholesaler) then paying the duty and VAT, meant it didn't have any cost advantage over regular diesel. Recycling old cooking oil (eg local chippy, etc) does work out cost effective, but then you have all the hassle of collecting large drums of the smelly stuff, etc.

Does anyone know of firms who do this, then sell the final product, in my local area (Cheshire)? I for one, would give it a go if it were a bit cheaper than the regular diesel.

 

[Mr Chippy]

i'm not absolutley certain quite how, but you make a regular declaration to customs and excise saying how much non duty paid fuel you have used and then cough up the appropriate rate

You need to be registered with customs as a producer. Then they send a form every month, and you have to declare how much fuel has been produced. So many litres times the duty rate = amount of cheque to send back with the form.

 

[shaggy]

now i do hope youre not suggesting that you put supermarket oil in, and fail to pay the customs and excise their due!- ours is 75p litre, carefully cleaned and filtered,plus a few simple additives to improve acetane/detergent properties and supplied DUTY AND VAT paid!

so what are the few simple additives? and why pay you 75p ltr if its that easy to do at home?

 

[davidsl500]

Richard, Are you selling blended oil at your forcourt pumps i.e. 50/50 blend means that you are supplying half std diesel and half veg oil?

 

[richard t]

yes , we supply straight veg oil, a 50% blended fuel and a 25% blended fuel- the diesel component is 'at cost' currently 89p litre, and the veg oil at 75p. The duty is around 27p a litre on the veg oil plus vat at 17.5%, so it is up to us to collect it and process it , ( only a percentage of it is suitable to make a quality fuel) and then retail it - at 75p a litre I promise you we are not going to be oil barons, we are a business who have to cover our overhead costs and investment in machinery, then try to make a profit, just as any other. Our problem at present is that it takes us at least 6 weeks to produce a fuel from collection- thats a lot of old oil sitting around. We are planning a major investment in equipment to get this down to 6 days. Our main motivation is to create a fuel with good enviromental credentials from an otherwise waste product, and as fossil fuels run dry, then any experience gained in this field can only be of benefit to all of us. I just happen to be a mercedes fanatic aswell! cheers richard.