Viano as an everyday car and possible problems.

[Droverunner]

I see I've not been on here for over a year... apart from the fact we and our cars have done little during the pandemic the wife's CLK 220CDi has gone into a period of reliability after all the overhaul work done post purchase up to 2019. Anyway I want what I'm calling a day van to give us somewhere to sit in and make a brew with a bit of room to stretch our legs on longer days out to the coast etc with the dog.... also to carry the fair amount of kit involved with our inflatable boating on the sea (think more RNLI inshore rescue craft than beach toy). Considering all makes the Viano in 6/8 seater mode is the nearest start to how we want a vehicle as we do not want a project to begin with a van to create a camper style vehicle... just removing either rear or centre row seats from a Viano and using the extra floor space will suffice.

Currently I have a Mondeo Ghia estate which has been a great vehicle and the Viano would replace this. I would DIY all but the most heavyweight jobs.

Anyone running a Viano with opinions on how I might find one as a daily driver and a heads up on any issues they might suffer. If we had a 220Cdi it would be broadly the same engine as our CLK but if a 3.0CDi they and any problems are outside my experience.

We would probably be buying anything from a 2009 to 2013 model.

All thoughts appreciated.

 

[M80]

This is a bigger subject than you imagine.

Same engine as your CLK is the most reliable, but is £555 road tax.
For reduced road tax you need the 651 engine (post 2010) and with the many, many gremlins that can bring.
If it's to have the DRL headlights then it'll have the 651 or 642 engine, both then with DPF.

The V6 642 will definitely have a DPF, and 642 gremlins, and be approx 20% heavier on fuel than the 646 2.1 engine.

Compacts don't have a spare underslung. The long and ex long do. Many repair centres can't accommodate the ex long on their ramps, so they need to go to a commercial repairer for some works.

Long and ex long were often taxis, many more than you think have been clocked. If ex London you can tell by MOT history, others aren't always obvious.

Consider extras desirable.
Forget Comand, Chinese HU's are superior.
Elec sliding doors can have issues.
Heated seats aren't so much of a need where you are.
Auto lights isn't something I ever feel a need for but that does come with auto wipers which I do.
A full 2+1 bench seat is a real heavy item to lift out / in.
Drivers sun roof, rear passenger sun roof.
Folding table, cool box (likely faulty by now).

From a cold start, after standing over night look for exhaust smoke, if the 651 engine listen for chain rattle at start up also.
Look for puffs of black smoke when warm when the peddle is pumped some.

Not so easy in Cambridgeshire but a test drive wants to be to full temp and then looking for vibes / hunting under load, apply the footbrake while driving at 1.8 / 2k revs if need be.

That's just one or two quick thoughts.

 

[curious]

I can't comment on the Viano aspects but, as a Vito driver they drive very nicely indeed. Mine's got the OM646 mapped to 145hp and goes the same speed down hill/on the flat/up hill, being limited only by the rev limiter. (I had an OM646 in my W203 C-class which is one reason why I chose the same in the Vito.) Mine's got a manual gearbox and once you get used to it it's fine. It's nothing like as quick a gearbox as you'll have in your Ford. (Viano's are probably more likely to be automatic.)

As a Vito it's a different tax category (N1) to a Viano (M1) and also subject to lower speed limits. (My annual tax is currently £265)
You're right about converting one to the other, a whole load of potential problems that generally just don't make the effort worthwhile.

Once you get used to the space in the back you won't go back. (I've got an F-type and if I had to choose to have just 1 vehicle, it would be my 13 year old Vito!)

Nearly forgot, check the plated emissions on whatever you're looking at buying. The MOT rules have tightened in recent years meaning that some that would have passed easily before, are now potentially going to struggle to get through. M80 (above) had this crop up recently.

 

[Droverunner]

Excellent thoughts guys.

So some scattergun responses...

I'm only considering a Compact so the ramp length will not be an issue. What do Compacts have for a spare tyre then... a pump and sealant kit?

Re emissions and VED etc I will only consider an M1 car class vehicle re speed limits and the car based VED is a minefield. It seems a manual box 2.2 even an older one will be nearer £300/yr but as soon as an auto then about £600/yr. All old 3lit are £600ish but after 2010 or so it seems a 3lit auto just scrapes into the £300ish band..... perhaps as do newer 2.2 autos. I'm just running the reg no on the Gov website for any vehicle of interest to check its emission level and looking it up on the VED charts.

Wil look into MOT emissions changes.

In truth even if a bit clunky I'd prefer a manual but that really restricts choice of vehicle as so many are auto.

Re space I'm a bit spoilt at the Mondeo estate is a hell of a load carrier and initially I thought we could have a smaller size van like a VW Caddy LWB but it soon became obvious once you took up some floor area for stretch your legs out seating then there was almost no loadspace left.

Agreed re the heavy 2+1 seat... ideally we'd like the twin middle row seats to give more space, comforts and floor area flexibility.

So is it just the 651 that suffers from timing chain issues? I assume it's on the front of the engine unlike the stupid BMW idea of putting it at the rear on many of their diesels.

Re the 642 gremlins... are these mostly annoying ancillary issues rather than the lump itself? I.e. not engine out stuff?

How about the autos... same reliability as the cars like the 5spd in our CLK.

In some ways might a high miler (200k-300k) airport run taxi of the older engine be better that a lower mileage (under 150k) London school run post 2010 vehicle?

Oh yes... rust an issue any more less than a MB car?

 

[M80]

651 chain is at the rear. The additional engine components, much due to emissions measures, make working on the n/s of the engine a real bitch. I've given up and my 2014 2.1 (651) awaits me to find time to remove the engine.
There is far too much plastic, that cracks and leaks.
It is smooth, quiet and more frugal, but until running again ****** useless.

Mine failed its MOT at 0.39 smoke whatevers, because on the VIN plate it states 0.1, thanks Mercedes.

Buy a long in preference to the compact. Aside from them looking cr*p imho, you get so much more, the additional 10" of luggage space will reward you.
The only advantage of the compact is that it is extremely unlikely to have been a taxi.

I haven't seen a manual Viano, but happy to learn.
The 5speed auto was fitted in all 639's as far as I'm aware. Same box and reliability as your CLK. Just needs servicing every 40k, or so.
They will do much more w/o serious harm but the servicing is good advice, especially on the 639 as it's pulling a fair weight.

Single seats are commonly called captain seats. In the Viano all seats can be reconfigured to suit. Buying captain seats and selling the 2+1 wouldn't be difficult. The 2+1's have good demand, even in cloth.

High miles on a 646 is far less of a concern than the 651 or the 642. Difficult to trace vibes from auto box, TC, prop.... is more likely on all with miles.
The 642 gremlins are from oil onto the inlet port motor (easy cheap work around) inlet manifolds gumming up / flaps collapsing. Oil cooler seals, cheap seals but many hours of labour. To my mind they are as similarly robust as the 651, which doesn't compare to the 646 as a robust lump.

Pre 2006 more rust likely.
Not eliminated post 2006.
Better still post 2010.

I did say it was an involved subject. Keep asking but much more will become known when you have one, and wish it was the other one.

 

[curious]

I don't know what the Viano compact does with regard to a spare wheel. In a Vito it's attached inside on a bracket on the wall above the nearside wheel arch. It's ugly, takes up space, but not really an issue for me. It's also a proper 5th wheel, not a space saver or anything else.

Edit: Just found out the spare wheel is order specific. Could have one, might not, might be a can of goo.

 

[Droverunner]

>>> much more will become known when you have one, and wish it was the other one.

Oh yes ha ha how true. Anyway loads of extra info thanks.

Hmm well there is no spare space inside a Viano compact for a spare wheel so I guess they all have goo and a pump.

Re the Compact it really does have the room we seek and I'm fine with its looks.

Test driving is going to be a real problem for any meaningful tests. So many are for sale in town/city centres where it's going to be near impossible to get up to speed to test for motorway vibration. Also if you ask for them to be cold when you arrive for a cold start then unlikely to get one properly hot an any normal short drive.

So are all the 3lit models a 642 engine from the start (2005ish?) and is there any difference in complication as the years went on or were they high tech like your 651 from the start?

Re manual gearbox availability I see there are 8 on Autotrader in the up to £15k range compared to 39 automatics. Also seems I was wrong even a manual early 2.2 (so I guess a 646) is £600/yr VED.

And M80 if you are finding the 651 tight to work on then a 642 must be worse?

 

[M80]

I've had serious issues with a 642 in the Viano, ask LK.
It turned out that engine was goosed but 'experts' failed to spot it and I spent a small fortune attempting pointless resolution.
But, I would rather work on the 642 (as it was in the 2009 model) than the 651 in my now 2014.
The difference for me is that I believe the 651 is a good lump and worth the effort.
Cheaper tax and better consumption are a fair incentive. The 642 was dire on consumption, as nice a drive as it was when scooting about nicely.

The theory there is that engine out, replace all those silly plastic components, send the injectors away for testing, replace the stretchy chain (and tensioner of course) a few more bits here and there and it should do nicely till the faceless desk jockies force it off the road as an evil planet killer, as is now so fashionable.

The greatest issue with vibes on these is successful diagnosis. Star has no chance and w/o it becomes trial and error. The Viano seems better than the Vito though, or maybe some is down to a superior and quieter ride because of better insulation and rear air suspension.

The 646 should be up to temp in 5 miles or so.
The 642 perhaps a little longer.
The 651 due to a flippin' silly and more complicated thermostat can take 10 - 12....well many miles.
But if the auto box or TC have vibes you really want to not find out later.
With the manual (are you sure they're 639's) it's the dual mass flywheel that might show issue, but I've only read of those.
Vibes might be from engine mounts, gearbox mount, prop shaft, half shafts, sticky brake pads, warped brake disc.... or a number of other possibles. some of course are more easily diagnosed.

 

[Droverunner]

I'm glad you mentioned the manual gbox uncertainty... indeed when I look carefully all bar one of the "manuals" listed on Autotrader are actually autos in the pictures of the dash. Just this one... a basic Trend model... is really a manual... https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202105032151281 so they are rare.

Lots to think about!

 

[Droverunner]

Daft thought maybe... Japanese import with 3.2 petrol??

 

[M80]

The Jap imports often have electric seats, v rare here.
How can we be sure they're not clocked onboard ship?
Japan is similar size to us so I question how oldish mo mo's only do little mileage.
Super guzzlers also, and the torque is no more than a 2.1

The link is a long, not ex long.
Good, not Comand, heated seats, by the look of the light Mileage not scary if genuine and well maintained.
Not so good, if it even matters, are the cloth seats.
Not auto light s (so not auto wipers).

MOT history doesn't look scary.
Price looks ok / good.

Wanna buy my alloy wheels and dress it up for Saturday night?

 

[Nickhgard]

Had a viano for 5 years. Bought it with 150k on the clock and sold it with 225k. Only thing I had to do was to change the fan belt (apart from servicing). I loved that vehicle, 60reg face-lift 2.1 (651 I think).
The beauty of the viano is no adblu and the dpf is not as finicky as the newer v-class.
Service history is a must and you'd struggle to find one without leather and auto. Most are long (length 2) as well.

Sent from my VOG-L09 using Tapatalk

 

[Droverunner]

Quickly went off Japanese imports. The linked Trend model was just an example but always interesting to get opinions.

Have looked at older ones but many are getting a bit tired for the prices asked and I'd like to push rust as far away as possible.

May have to go with a 651 engine and as long as it drives OK at purchase cross fingers it won't cause to much grief.

Good to hear your experience was positive Nick.

 

[Droverunner]

Well phoned round three dealers all with possibles today... and was reminded why me and dealers are not a good fit.

First... I'm considering delivery and he quoted twice the going rate then wanted an additional £300 admin fee on top of price not stated anywhere in the ad. Then I queried the vehicle was advertised as an extra long but looked to be a long so could he check. Told to make my own mind up and had no interest in getting out V5 or measuring the vehicle itself.

Second... An older Compact with 646 engine and auto so £600 VED and the higher fuel consumption but smart interior and nice colour. A good £2k over my thoughts for its age so needed to be mint yet recent MOT advised start of rust in structural areas. Dealer appeared to think public availability of MOT records were a nuisance as buyers didn't understand what they were reading so could worry over stuff that was "unimportant".

Third... Complicated and unlikely story why the vehicle would not arrive for a week despite being photographed on their frontage. No doubt at their trusted mechanic's trying to get the check engine or ABS light off.

Still it all starts to add to experience for dropping on the right one when it comes up.

 

[Taffy7hfa]

My Daughter uses the ML 350 for camping , she loves it

 

[M80]

For the camping there are very reasonable curtain kits from Germany, for the 639.

As for dealers, and private sellers, it can be a real b ache dealing with them.
It's easy to travel flippin' hours to see something that isn't as stated, even with description from a previous add, copied and pasted but not amended.

I really can't get my head around admin fees, unless they want to pay mine. The squeeze a bit more, and then a lot more, pees me off. It only become normalised because too many allow it to be.

Registration gives MOT history easily. Also can be useful is the last V5 issued, but that can be for a change of plates. Any ads that hide the reg don't get further attention from me.
I ask for the VIN, that allows for a check of all manufacturer fitted options. When comparing 2 it can make a big difference as to which wins and is worth the drive.

Sellers often refuse to give the VIN, but some recognise it isn't an issue.

Best is to not be in a rush, but if you want it for those 2 days of summer we're due in July it's not so easy to be chilled.

 

[M80]

 

[curious]

It is just you and your wife for days out etc? i.e. do you need more than 3 seats?
Since this is turning out fairly difficult, extend your possible range to include Vitos and do what the surfer dude's do with their T5s.

Popping in DIY windows is actually fairly cheap and very easy.
Get a rock-n-roll bed for the back. (Don't travel with anyone in the seats and you don't need to comply with anything.)
Stick some self adhesive floor tiles on the floor, etc.
(A days work at most and probably done in 1/2 a day.)

OK, so it's still an N1 class and restricted but is this really a problem in the real world? In my N1 I just go with the traffic flow and know where the fixed speed cameras are. As mentioned before my tax is £265. You've also a better chance of finding a manual.

 

[Droverunner]

My twentysomething daughter is small and she could sleep in the back of her Honda Jazz with a couple of cushions and blankets. Must admit if our need/want was just a little different probably a people carrier/SUV would do. But we really want that larger flat floor area where we can walk (squeeze) between the front seats and access the rear without going outside... and have the flexibility of the multi posn seats on rails. The Viano ability to have (if 3 sets of 2 captain seats which is our ideal) no rear seats, all four or just two or three or one in any combination of posns is just what we want.

Thanks for the dimensions drawings... if dealers have a side on photo not too hard to judge but 3/4 angles from the front can be deceptive.

Yep I've seen those curtain sets and intend to fit even if just for our days out vehicle... we may need them even with dark tints to stop the bright sun streaming in during those two summer days you've promised.

I don't mind hidden reg ads where they use a nice dealer ad cover plate for all their vehicles but any resistance when you ask for a reg... which is my very first question when phoning so I can scan the MOT and info while I chat to them... well that's the end of it.

Anyway the hunt continues intensively... just pulled our own plate off my Mondeo and Halfords making the replacements at the moment. So I'll be ready to go for a trade in or quick local sale as soon as we've got the Viano.

 

[M80]

Yep I've seen those curtain sets and intend to fit even if just for our days out vehicle... we may need them even with dark tints to stop the bright sun streaming in during those two summer days you've promised.

We've had black curtains in the 1st black Vito,
and grey in the 1st siiver Viano (2nd 639).
Both do well to keep out the light but if memory serves, and as you might expect, the black were darker.
We didn't ever sleep in the Viano though, didn't get the chance.

Squeezing through the front seats not so difficult, even with the arm rests in place. I've fashioned a between seat storage unit that is super useful, so we can't.
Squeezing through rear captain seats not so easy, even with arm rests removed.