w201 Overengineered. What does that really mean?

[JimSharp39]

Hi

Have been thinking for a while about a late/run out w201 as a second car replacement for my wee lupo, and have often come across the word overengineered in relation to that model.

Can anyone elaborate as to what the reality of that is? And is it true? any pointers from w201 enthusiasts?

Am obliged in advance

Jim

97 slk
99 lupo
97 A6 quattro
79 gsx1100

 

[television]

Not easy but over engineered means built much stronger than it need be, with every thing very well made

 

[JimSharp39]

Thanks Television, so in general terms is the sheet metalwork thicker and better quality, things like wheel bearings able to take much more load than they actually ever need to, bushings more robust? (etc) I take it this description is in comparison to similar vehicles of the era, or is it absolute even now?
Cheers
Jim

 

[Aussie Nick]

I dont think you want to take the use of this term seriously. It can mean a lot of different things to a lot of different people. For instance the 201 would not likely be considered as overengineered to do a river crossing of the Fitzroy River whereas there is a class of Toyota vehicle which would.
Regards

 

[Micman]

I wouldn't take the term over-engineered too seriously.

It is a term commonly used when referring to cars for the golden era in the 1980s when some manufacturers over-engineered their products, including BMW, Mercedes and certain Volvo and Saab models.

Yes, individual parts were probably built to withstand higher demands and have therefore stood the test of time better than other makes of cars of the same era.

Does that make an over-engineered car from 20+ years ago better than a modern day 'more disposable' car.... I would say probably not.

 

[angus falconer]

Hi

Have been thinking for a while about a late/run out w201 as a second car replacement for my wee lupo, and have often come across the word overengineered in relation to that model.

During the 70's Mercedes cars retailed at huge prices in real terms. In fact the basic 190 of the mid-eighties would probably cost in the mid-high £30k's in today's money.

In return for these huge prices you got a car which had undergone exhaustive testing and meticulous assembly which would probably outlast just abut enything else on the road. Residuals refleted this.

Mass market cars of the time would last half as long or less.

Today the price gap has been erroded right down so you are no longer buying something that also enjoys the engineering gap. But then you're not paying £35k for a base C200 either

 

[Old Hat Shop]

Over-engineering

In my Humble onion, there is no such thing as over engineering. it either does the job or not. the only difference is good engineering and bad.

As a design engineer in a previous incarnation, I thought that anybody could design something that would work, but I tried to design things that would keep on working.

So, if Mercs were 'over engineered' maybe this explains why there are so many older examples still on the road.

When was the last time you saw a Sierra on the road? I've had this one in my mind for ages, and you really have to look for them.

 

[lakeside]

Over-engineering? Think of it more as Built to Last. It's a combination of good design, the best materials, and not building to a price. Whether components are repairable or disposable also comes in to it.

 

[OLDSCHOOL]

To right! I am also the owner of a 1984 Opel Manta with 40k on it from new.
As much as I love the old car it is reserved exclusively for dry sunny days and even then it needs constant maintenance to keep it on the road.

 

[Dinnie]

IMO, over engineered means building to their best ability for the hell of it because they can do it and not because of cost restrictions or "what the market will bear"

 

[television]

IMO, over engineered means building to their best ability for the hell of it because they can do it and not because of cost restrictions or "what the market will bear"

Well they certainly turned out that way

 

[hawk20]

Or as one review at the time said: -
'if a self tapping screw will do, they rivet it;
if a rivet will do, they bolt it;
if a bolt will do, they weld it;
If a weld will do they carve it from solid.'

 

[kth286]

There is a story of Mercedes demonstrating how good the structure of the new 124 convertible was, to a group of journalists.

As you probably all know, a convertible WITHOUT the roof enclosure of the saloon models is quite flimsy structurally, and is the reason they the dashboards often shake over rough ground.

So, the car was there standing on four wheels when they unbolted the front wing.

Then on that same side of the car they jacked the car up using the car jack in the jacking tube.

The car was therefore on three wheels and one corner was jacked up, and therefore the chassis was under pressure to skew,because it was not resting on an even keel.

Normally, with other manufacturers, the wing would be part of the stiffening of the chassis, especially on a convertible.

Whilst the car was still jacked up the technicians bolted the wing back into place, and even though the car was on a skew every bolt went into every hole perfectly freely according to the magazine article, proving the stiffness of the 124 convertible chassis even without the wing bolted on. Very impressive was the conclusion, as that had never before been able to be demonstrated. Over-engineered ???????

 

[television]

There is a story of Mercedes demonstrating how good the structure of the new 124 convertible was, to a group of journalists.

As you probably all know, a convertible WITHOUT the roof enclosure of the saloon models is quite flimsy structurally, and is the reason they the dashboards often shake over rough ground.

So, the car was there standing on four wheels when they unbolted the front wing.

Then on that same side of the car they jacked the car up using the car jack in the jacking tube.

The car was therefore on three wheels and one corner was jacked up, and therefore the chassis was under pressure to skew,because it was not resting on an even keel.

Normally, with other manufacturers, the wing would be part of the stiffening of the chassis, especially on a convertible.

Whilst the car was still jacked up the technicians bolted the wing back into place, and even though the car was on a skew every bolt went into every hole perfectly freely according to the magazine article, proving the stiffness of the 124 convertible chassis even without the wing bolted on. Very impressive was the conclusion, as that had never before been able to be demonstrated. Over-engineered ???????

Well the only thing that I did not like on the 124 was the seats, but I did do a 1100 mile trip in one day and I felt fine after that, this also goes to show the quality that was built in to those cars, and out of all the fancy cars that I have owned, the 124 is the only one that stays in my mind as a great car.

That must mean something

 

[jubhi]

Mercedes-Benz "Engineered like no other car"

 

[kth286]

in past - engineered like no other car.

in present - engineered like every other car . Unfortunately.

 

[television]

Building in faults feed the workshop guys

 

[verytalldave]

As a design engineer, the term "over engineered" to me means producing an item with a safety factor in excess of what is to be "reasonably expected" during its design lifetime.
This is a quantifiable and calcuable figure using simple equations and logic.
Everything that is built has a design lifetime. Depending on what the item is, normally dictates its expected working life. I list below AVERAGE design lifetimes for various everyday items - the figures given are my own estimates.............
Washing machine - 10 years
Brick built house - 200 years
Modern Car - 10 years
Childs toy - 1 year
Computer - 5 years
Steel framed bridge - 100 years
Oil rig - 25 years

And so the list could go on.........
Anything is designed with the knowledge and experience of existing similar products and therefore its design life can be fairly accurately estimated.
Some things arent very critical - for example a mobile phone. If it goes wrong early, its annoying - but not dangerous. Whereas a road bridge is an entirely different matter for obvious reasons. A bridge IS critical. You DONT want a bridge collapsing - even under abnormal conditions. So with something like that you build it with a very high safety factor.
The safety factor is a calculated number given to a structure or item from previous experience.
By way of example.....
We know that a girder of a particular size and material can support, for example a load of 2 tons between two supporting points before unacceptable deflection. If then the maximum load that girder will EVER experience within its working life will be one ton, then the safety factor is 2. Or for half a ton, it would be 4. And so on.
This of course is being very simplistic and MANY factors have to be taken into account to arrive at a good safe workable number.
Experience and laboratory testing gives us the safety factor number for every material and cross section used.
These numbers are then used to give the structure its OVERALL safety factor (SF) number.
For example, the QE2 bridge at Dartford.
The bridge could experience a maximum TOTAL LOAD at any time of, say 10,000 tons. No more.
To give the bridge a working life safety factor of 6 would require the load engineer to have to design for a load of 60,000 tons.
This allows for age degrediation, snow, rain and wind loading plus other factors.

The same principle works in cars within its workings and structure.
Cheaper cars would use lower safety factors than more expensive cars for the same items, for example an alternator mounting bracket. Cheaper means less material and a poorer quality material.
Over-Engineered simply refers to an item that has been designed to withstand a higher working load - which therefore inherently gives it a longer normal lifespan.
Under-engineered is the reverse where something fails for no apparent reason. For example the kingpins on Morris 1000's. They failed frequently.
You could of course over-engineer something to a degree whereby it would never fail unless subjected to ridiculous extremes. Who remembers Jeremy Clarkson trying to wreck a Porsche a few years back? Thats a good example.
Waffle over...............

 

[philharve]

Hi All

Yes, I have always equated 'over-engineered' as equivalent to 'well made' and 'superior quality'.

REGARDS

Phil