Waterpumps again! (see leaks and groans)

[Richard.Wilson]

Hi there again,
Having just added my two-penneth to the leaks and groans thread, I've got a coolant problem of my own. Started last week with a low expansion tank level, so filled her up. but It seems I'm losing coolant every time I leave the engine to cool. It seems to be coming from a "breather" hose which runs from the underside of the waterpump casing. Cannot see exactly where it goes, but it's approx 5/8" 16mm OD rubber runs down from below the pulley on the crank and exits on the RHS of the motor onto the undertray. I'm guessing this is designed to let any water leaking from the pump seals dump onto the floor instead of getting thrown all over the shop by the pulley and fan?...or is there some strange German thing going on which doesn't involve the pump?
I guess a new pump is in order, any advice.....can buy one from German & Swedish, made in germany I'm told £38, but not sure if they are any good. anybody had experience with OEM vs pattern pumps?

 

[jaques2k]

You´re right about the breather hose/hole (usually it´s just a hole under the water pump), it´s designed so that when the sealing breaks, it shouldn´t press water into the pump bearings, which would cause the pump to cut stuck, with a lot worse damages to follow. I would say it´s that type of hose you´ve found. It´s also a very clear mark to show where the failure is. It´s almost impossible to repair that kind of failure on a water pump, so I think it´s right to buy a new one. (had exactly the same prob. on a prev. car).
Wherefrom or what pump you should buy I don´t have any idea about, maybe someone can help on that part...
Good luck!

 

[Richard Moakes]

I don't like wasting money, but I bought genuine pumps!

...and here is why

I don't want to have to do that job again for at least 60K miles, and didn't want to take the risk of a pattern pump failing early.

Given that it takes between 4 - 6 hours to change the pump, I didn't think the approx. £110 for a genuine pump was over the top. At commercial rates it easily pays for itself if it lasts a few years longer than a cheaper item. I changed it myself, but in skinned knuckle currency, it still seems cheap!

Richard

1989 W124 300E

 

[Peter 300TE]

One of the few things I have learned from the last few days.

When I spoke to MB they advised me of the modifications to the water pumps for this type of drainage.

They are not expensive (£2-50) however their view was a leak from here does indicate pump failure.

Cost and genuine vs OEM is more difficult. GSF are quoting me less than half of the MB dealership for a water pump. I have used GSF for many things parts over the years firstly on VW's and later on Volvo's I have found the parts to be of good quality. I suspect the answer to that question lies on persoanl experience

 

[Leylandp76]

I find it interesting as a former owner of the much maligned Jaguar XJ40 series that from these conversations and my own experience (my 300TE water pump is leaking too) the Mercedes OEM water pumps appear to be quite prone to failure for whatever reason. Certainly there was no special mention of water pump failure on the Jag discussion lists I have been on (we usually worried about all too frequent ABS failures etc instead :wink: )

Water pumps are not high technology, nor is there anything special about making them last a long time. Some manufacturers seem to build problem free ones and others don't. It would appear that the pumps at least in W124 cars are a bit weak. I have a friend with a 1961 220E that is thought to be still running on its original motor and accessories, so obviously Mercedes CAN build good water pumps.

My opinion is that if the Mercedes pumps seem to be prone to failure, there is no harm in trying a cheaper option. GSF sell good quality parts and have a reputation to protect in this regard. Their pumps may well be sourced from the same OEM as Mercedes anyway, but even if not, frankly they'd be pretty poor to last even less time than the original M-B pumps. If lucky they might be even better, although I accept that if they are a direct copy this is unlikely.

Just my $0.02 worth (and I will be buying a GSF water pump soon)

 

[Richard Moakes]

I have to agree that most GSF parts are of equivalent quality (just don't buy their electric window mechanisms! :evil: )

GSF sometimes get it wrong too, I still have a perfectly new drag link in my garage that they swear fits my car, it doesn't ! I gave my local dealer my chassis# and next day they had the correct part for me, so sometimes it pays to go with the genuine parts.

The genuine pump had markings which looked Italian, and I feel that the design may be a little weak, perhaps that awfully complicated tensioner and shock absorber place too much load on the shaft and cause wear and leaks.

If you go on the basis that MB dealers fit genuine MB pumps, and they don't want to replace them under warranty, including labour etc..., then they must be of a reasonable quality.

We all know Andy Gayle specifies genuine parts, and I suspect that is because of bitter experience, rather than profit margin.

Don't get me wrong, my car has loads of GSF and Eurocarparts kit on it, but it is stuff that is easy to get at and change if it breaks, unlike that stupidly designed pump!

I guess sometimes you win sometimes you lose, every part I get from GSF or ECP is checked to make sure it is from a company like Febi or FAG etc, if I don't recognise the brand as quality, then they don't get my money.

Good luck with fitting it, whichever brand you choose, it is still an awful job.

Cheers,

Richard

1989 W124 300E

 

[Peter 300TE]

Have just spoken to MB to order a new water pump to find their price is for an exchange unit. Are they selling me second hand re furbished parts for twice the price of a GSF brand new one?

Its GSF then and I'll obviously have to live with the consequences.

Just need to find someone to fit it now

 

[Richard.Wilson]

Thanks for the responses guys,
Maybe I wasn't so clear with my original post, but mine is a 102 (2.3L 4-pot) motor, so it seems the fitting is somewhat easier, as it's all on the front and there's plenty of space to work.....unless someone knows different. Hence I'm not so worried about it
I checked out the MB price today, and it works out at £85 ish...exchange which is (as has been said) twice the GSF price.
I'm inclined to go with the GSF one, but have reservations over quality because the last time I bought a pattern waterpump was for my Range Rover, and the pattern one was of really crappy design. I work with pumps quite a bit, and there is a difference in performance between a well designed impeller with enclosed curved blades, and the rough cast paddlewheel that was fitted to the pattern one. Guess I just have to take a close look at the one supplied by GSF and take my chances. I'll go to the stealership and take a look at a MB one first!!!
Further point , I was checking the mercedesshop.com forum, and they seem really worried by the different types of coolant being supplied. seems the MB gear is pink, and most other US coolant is green. There is a big debate as to the virtues of the different types of coolant ,the make up of these, and it's effect on the motor. As both my cars leak copious amounts I buy Comma Coldmaster conentrate in 20L drums ....and it's blue...guess I'm doomed

 

[bazza]

I replaced the water pump in my 2.0 190 (same block as your engine) as this was leaking from the small hole underneath.
I bought the replacment from ECP for a fraction of the cost of the dealers price. Changed the pump in under 2 hours from start to finish, and guess what!! The pump from ECP was the exact same pump as fitted to my car from the factory. Amazing how much a hologram on a box costs!!

Good luck Bazza

 

[Richard Moakes]

Current MB coolant supplied by my local dealer is a deep Blue/Green colour.

Sounds like the pump is much easier to change on the 4 cyl cars, if that is the case and I had a 4cyl, then I would be looking at the cheaper GSF option.

Cheers,

Richard

 

[Richard.Wilson]

Well,
I went with the GSF one, it's made by GK Autoteile GMBH, and although it's not exactly the same casting, it is exactly the same impeller, and runs the same dimensions and clearences. £38 + the vodka and tonic.

2 1/2 hours later and I had it fitted tested and running. fitted a new thermostat, and used S/S bolts and jubilee clips and some copperslip....I normally use these when the old ones are a bit rusty, just in case I need to get it off again one day. Comes from working with chemical process equipment, there just seem to be loads of "spare" ones just the right size.

Anyway, I'm pretty confident to recommend the GSF option on a type 102 motor. Looks good quality.
One point of note though, I've been back through the full MB dealer history and invoices, and I cannot see it ever having a waterpump replaced before, yet there was no gasket fitted to the pump, just white sealant. The only instance I can see when it might have been removed was when the head was taken off at 100K to skim the exhaust gasket face.
Curious!................but watertight and contented
Thanks guys