Whose fault in law ( no witneses )

[tjamesbo]

Referring to the image below my daughter in Car A was moving into the Outer lane to Turn Right she is confident she moved over at the start of the proper lane opening she was hit by car B that was already in that lane but had moved over into the hatched area getting in the lane prematurely . So daughter a bit shocked didnt see the car till it was broadside . We viewed the scene and about 50% of drivers move over too early and cross the hatched area.
There are no witnesses but there is a petrol station bang opposite so might be on their video ( not sure how we could view that my son was mugged at a petrol station in nottingham had £200 quid stolen and we werent allowed to see the video ) so not sure how that would go . presumably crossing the hatches is a road traffic offence ?
However with no witnesses the other driver is going to say she was in the correct lane and my daughter moved accross and hit her, so what does that default to? when the insurance company sees the sketches that will differ Am I correct there are rules for apportioning blame according to position and direction of travel alone ?
Luckily a minor incident but she stands to have a claim on her record hopefully whats correct will prevail but life aint always like that is it
Boyd

 

[television]

Not an easy one at all, it could end up 50-50 to blame and so easily done.

 

[AMGeed]

So car B was already in the hatched area and overtook your daughter just as she pulled across to turn right, causing the collision?

If that is the case, I'd say Car B was at fault for being in the hatched area too early and your daughter could not have expected someone to overtake her and be in her path as she turned.
Hope it turns out OK for her. At least she wasn't hurt by the incident.

 

[tjamesbo]

Yes it appears to have come from the hatched area our worry is the other driver will deny and say it happened 20yds on out of the hatched area which I suspect is a completely different angle as far as "automatic " blame is concerned

 

[tjamesbo]

The hatchings were surrounded by a broken white line which means the other car was allowed to be there new one on me but according to
http://www.drivingtesttips.biz/hatched-road-markings.html
This appears now to put the blame on her worrying thing is I probably would have done the same ie moved over not expecting anyone to be there
I'm confused now over what the HE** these markings achieve if you are allowed over them the downside risk would appear to negate the potential benefit

 

[MissyD]

Sorry to hear this, did your daughter take any pics at the scene?

 

[AMGeed]

Yes it appears to have come from the hatched area our worry is the other driver will deny and say it happened 20yds on out of the hatched area which I suspect is a completely different angle as far as "automatic " blame is concerned

Easy to be wise after the event, but this sort of incident really shows the value of taking photos at the scene even with a lousy mobile phone camera.

The hatchings were surrounded by a broken white line which means the other car was allowed to be there new one on me but according to
http://www.drivingtesttips.biz/hatched-road-markings.html
This appears now to put the blame on her worrying thing is I probably would have done the same ie moved over not expecting anyone to be there
I'm confused now over what the HE** these markings achieve if you are allowed over them the downside risk would appear to negate the potential benefit

I'd have done the same too.
Surely crossing the broken line and going into the hatched area is only recommended if your car is going to block the lane behind you ?
One for the legal eagles I'm sure

 

[LostKiwi]

Yes the dotted edges to the hatchings indicate it is permitted to enter the hatched area. A solid boundary should be treated as a no go area, much the same as centre lines on the road.
I'm afraid it suggests your daughter was in the wrong but its likely to go 50-50.

 

[L John]

As there's no proof that the accident happened on that point at the end of the hatchings it will likely be seen as 100% your daughters fault, as car B was hit towards the rear of the vehicle your daughter should have been aware of the car she was about to steer into.

 

[L John]

I'd definitely invest in a dashcam for future driving.

 

[Some guy on the internet]

A dashcam might only confirm the OP's daughter was 100% at fault.

If the lines of the cross hatched area are broken the other car could legally & legitimately be in that space & she caused the RTC by changing lanes into him.

 

[Oarsman]

Unfortunately I can only refer you to the way I was taught to drive, back in the dark ages.
1. Mirror
2. Signal
3. Manoeuvre.
Did your daughter take steps 1 & 2 or go direct to 3?

 

[Ken_R]

I feel sorry for your daughter but what happened to "MIRROR(s), signal, MANOEUVRE"?

As already pointed out, if the hatched area is bordered by broken lines, then it is an 'avoid' going into......

When I first started LGV Driving Training (with my various hyperthetical schematics) I raised this point with a DSA Examiner as to whether, with an Artic, when joining vehicles already waiting to turn right, is the candidate expected to avoid the hatch markings (broken border), and thereby obstruct following vehicles, or to traverse the hatch markings thereby allow following vehicles to proceed.

The answer was to adopt the latter positioning and allow free passage to the left.

Such was also the case when I was 'training' drivers for the IAM test. My advice, particularly on 'faster' roads, was to, where safe, position early and 'tuck your arse in', out of the way of the following traffic.

I'm sorry but, in essence, she has turned into the side of a vehicle that was (seemingly) legitimately using that part of the roadway.

 

[Rory]

The hatchings were surrounded by a broken white line which means the other car was allowed to be there new one on me..

I've always thought the broken bordered hatched areas where a bit odd - you're not supposed to enter them unless it's safe to do so. But you wouldn't do anything on the road if you didn't think it was safe?

I'm afraid in your daughter's case it looks like she changed position without checking it was clear to do so.

 

[umblecumbuz]

Whether or not the hatched area is a no-go zone, any driver making a change of direction is responsible for making sure it is safe to do so.

The blame looks to be your daughter's - regrettably.

 

[Naraic]

The OP's daughter through lack of experience may not have observed sufficiently to avoid the collision but the other driver also had an onus and a duty of care and consideration. Car B clearly overtook car A in a situation where an experienced driver might have held back.

50:50 for the insurers.

 

[L John]

The OP's daughter through lack of experience may not have observed sufficiently to avoid the collision but the other driver also had an onus and a duty of care and consideration. Car B clearly overtook car A in a situation where an experienced driver might have held back.

50:50 for the insurers.

That's assuming the insurers accept the collision was immediately after the hatched area.
I doubt the driver will play fair and say they were overtaking using the painted area.

 

[ajlsl600]

accidents

this is why i am considering the dash cam thing, i understand that they can be obtained now built into a replacement rear view mirror ? thus avoiding the afterthought look . anyone found out who supplies them ?

 

[umblecumbuz]

this is why i am considering the dash cam thing, i understand that they can be obtained now built into a replacement rear view mirror ? thus avoiding the afterthought look . anyone found out who supplies them ?

Plenty on the Bay.

But how will a forward facing dashcam show this particular accident?
To do the job properly you need both forward and rear facing cameras.

On my S204 I have both, but the rear facing camera has to sit in the middle of the rear window which is a pain in the rear view mirror, because that is the swept area of the wiper and the rear window (estate) gets mucky very quickly.

On the other hand, it is clearly visible to following cars, and I am sure it deters some motorists from tailgating! I have watched them come up close, then back off and keep their distance.

 

[tjamesbo]

Thanks for all the input chaps lot of good stuff there I shall make sure she reads it all and digests it