Brexit

[Frontstep]

Don't worry though when you go to La la land those national pastimes are invisible and due diligence is just the band on in the local bar.

 

[Frosty149]

Don't worry though when you go to La la land those national pastimes are invisible and due diligence is just the band on in the local bar.

They also stop being an issue, as a 'non-member'!

 

[Frosty149]

"due diligence is just the band on in the local bar."

Bit like the 'coalition of chaos' too heavy for me!

 

[davemercedes]

NONE of the above points change the simple fact that Greece borrowed money that they could not afford to pay.
- Nobody forced them to do it!
- Then - after they had written off half their debt, the EU is blamed for their insolvency?

- So every time someone fibs (or tells outright lies) to get a personal bank loan or finance, it's the bank/finance company who is to blame?

 

[Frosty149]

NONE of the above points change the simple fact that Greece borrowed money that they could not afford to pay.
- Nobody forced them to do it!
- Then - after they had written off half their debt, the EU is blamed for their insolvency?

- So every time someone fibs (or tells outright lies) to get a personal bank loan or finance, it's the bank/finance company who is to blame?

Dave, I think that may be somewhat simplistic, Greece's financial status was fairly well known before the first bailout.
Equally the high street lenders, under regulatory control, have to have some income/outgoing financial data before lending significant sums or they share the potential investment losses. Banks risk levels are normally commensurate with the interest rate charged - look at the APR rates on payday loans!

 

[Frontstep]

It appears the exit is taking longer than the entry

NONE of the above points change the simple fact that Greece borrowed money that they could not afford to pay.
- Nobody forced them to do it!
- Then - after they had written off half their debt, the EU is blamed for their insolvency?

- So every time someone fibs (or tells outright lies) to get a personal bank loan or finance, it's the bank/finance company who is to blame?

Your missing the point (again) the problem is the EU let them in the Euro club.

If you think of monetary union what would make you want to throw your hat in with Greece as an EU official ?

Would it be their tight fiscal policy, healthy reserves, great balance of payments ?

Or might it be blind political dogma that helps you avoid the blindingly obvious and the fact that as an EU bloatocrat you personally are so obsessed with the project you don't care who suffers and how much.

Greece free of the Euro might find the drachma more helpful to their economy.

 

[apxc15]

Am I missing something?
Another crossing in south east London was recently approved (10yrs to complete!).
The dartford crossing tolls benefit a French company...

Proposed maybe, such as the Silvertown (toll) but probably not in my lifetime!!!!

We need a free bridge or tunnel now, not in some ones dreams for the future!!

 

[davemercedes]

Dave, I think that may be somewhat simplistic, Greece's financial status was fairly well known before the first bailout.
Equally the high street lenders, under regulatory control, have to have some income/outgoing financial data before lending significant sums or they share the potential investment losses. Banks risk levels are normally commensurate with the interest rate charged - look at the APR rates on payday loans!

Greece LIED - i.e.: they falsified their figures to join the EU and borrow money.
- Their true status came out when they admitted the truth
- And then they were 'forgiven' about half of their debt!
- How vicious is a lender that lets you off half the debt eh?

But nearly everyone here says it's the fault of the EU because Greece lied to them! Give me strength!

Here we go...:
I'll go the Natwest Bank and tell them I need £30 K to refurbish my house.
- And let's assume I fail their credit checks but tell a few porkies to justify being solvent (like Greece did)
- And then the local branch Lone Ranger lets me have the dosh...

If I wait for a couple of months while the debt + interest build up...
- And then tell them I can't pay and tell the truth i.e.: show that I actually already owe £100K which I can't pay...
- (just like Greece did)
- Err I don't think they'll propose writing off £15K (half my loan)?

- But supposing they did, I would first have disclose all my income/outgoings and agree what cuts I could make
- in order to settle the remaining (half) debt...
- Then I could get all my mates to complain about the villainous bank that forced me to borrow money....

- And I would be able to sit and wait while Natwest consulted all their investors to give me a special deal on the balance.
- And for months and months I would be able to sit back as the debt built up again because I wasn't paying it off!

And to think that people call the EU La La land!...
- I think all those who blame the EU for the Greeks lying to borrow are the ones in La La land!

 

[davemercedes]

It appears the exit is taking longer than the entry


Your missing the point (again) the problem is the EU let them in the Euro club.

If you think of monetary union what would make you want to throw your hat in with Greece as an EU official ?

Would it be their tight fiscal policy, healthy reserves, great balance of payments ?

Or might it be blind political dogma that helps you avoid the blindingly obvious and the fact that as an EU bloatocrat you personally are so obsessed with the project you don't care who suffers and how much.

Greece free of the Euro might find the drachma more helpful to their economy.

I'm not missing anything. Brexquitters seem to fit your description absolutely perfectly i.e.: We must get out at any cost!

- The truth is Greece LIED as above, they falsified their income in order to join the EU.
- To be precise, the Greek politicians who signed the treaties lied - and as usual the people are left to pay all the costs.
- As the debt grew and they finally admitted they had lied and had to make cuts, their Finance Minister probably told the population: Eímaste óloi mazí se aftó - ("We're all in this together!")

- And if you think the EU bear part of the blame then just look at Mrs Mayhem and the DUP
- Arlene Foster (DUP) says: "It takes two to tango and we're ready to dance!" (For £2Bn finance apparently!)

 

[Frosty149]

[QUOTE="davemercedes, post: 1535462, member: 59422"

Here we go...:
I'll go the Natwest Bank and tell them I need £30 K to refurbish my house.
- And let's assume I fail their credit checks but tell a few porkies to justify being solvent (like Greece did)
- And then the local branch Lone Ranger lets me have the dosh...

If I wait for a couple of months while the debt + interest build up...
- And then tell them I can't pay and tell the truth i.e.: show that I actually already owe £100K which I can't pay

1. You failed the credit check.
A high street lender needs their head read to lend in this situation!
2. You told some porkies.
You need to substantiate any asset or income claims or it's a no-go!
3. You already owe £100k, but you didn't reveal it? This debt is exposed in a credit check!

You are guilty of financial fraud.
The lender is in breach of the regs.
You both face some very tough questions, if not proceedings.

With respect to Greece, for the time being I'll have to respect your assertions, I don't recall it that way, but I'll do some reading.
I'll be shocked if a national economy managed to manipulate its financial position to the extent you outline, but as I say I don't have the knowledge on this one...

 

[Frontstep]

I know it may come as a complete shock to you but some people do lie, short far bald men become tall athletic and handsome,
60 year old women are "just over forty" and Greece with astonishing speed massaged its accounts from basket case to well a basket, they were never in the triple a ratings.

The point I try to make is it was obvious they had cooked their books but like all the others but the EU turned a blind eye, so the project was rotten from the outset.

Like many other vanity projects that the EU bloatacrats have wasted billions on from wine lakes to bridges to no where and temples of waste they carry on obsessed.

 

[Frosty149]

I know it may come as a complete shock to you but some people do lie, short far bald men become tall athletic and handsome,
60 year old women are "just over forty" and Greece with astonishing speed massaged its accounts from basket case to well a basket, they were never in the triple a ratings.

The point I try to make is it was obvious they had cooked their books but like all the others but the EU turned a blind eye, so the project was rotten from the outset.

Like many other vanity projects that the EU bloatacrats have wasted billions on from wine lakes to bridges to no where and temples of waste they carry on obsessed.

Frontstep,
As I replied to Dave, my recollection does not support this scenario, therefore (by recollection only), I can't in all honesty, disagree.
If the description is as you both describe I'm happy to be as outraged as you two good gents and eat humble pie...
In the meantime I'll have a read-up.

 

[Frontstep]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-16834815

This helps explain Greeces miracle financial recovery.

 

[Frosty149]

Thanks for the reference/link

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-16834815

This helps explain Greeces miracle financial recovery.

My posted comment refers to the bailout by the EMF not the entry to EU!
As said, time for some schooling on my part with respect to the Greek situation.

 

[Frontstep]

The article is not about entry to the EU its their Euro convergence criteria fudge, the EMF bailout has some of its roots in that.
Greek debts are unsustainable and Germans tire of bailing them out;

 

[davemercedes]

[QUOTE="davemercedes, post: 1535462, member: 59422"

Here we go...:
I'll go the Natwest Bank and tell them I need £30 K to refurbish my house.
- And let's assume I fail their credit checks but tell a few porkies to justify being solvent (like Greece did)
- And then the local branch Lone Ranger lets me have the dosh...

If I wait for a couple of months while the debt + interest build up...
- And then tell them I can't pay and tell the truth i.e.: show that I actually already owe £100K which I can't pay

1. You failed the credit check. ==> I said that
A high street lender needs their head read to lend in this situation! ==> I said "Local Manager" and they do sometimes make mistakes and get dazzled by a business plan and give credit on "gut feel"...
2. You told some porkies. ==> I said that (just like Greece lied through their teeth)
You need to substantiate any asset or income claims or it's a no-go! ==> There are ways of falsifying income - GO on google and read the facts - see how Greece provided falsified "documentation" of their GDP etc.
3. You already owe £100k, but you didn't reveal it? This debt is exposed in a credit check!
==> Greece lied about how much they owed to whom.

You are guilty of financial fraud. ==> So were Greece
The lender is in breach of the regs. ==> Maybe. But they did not force Greece to borrow any money and they wrote off TONS:
<<<The government enacted 12 rounds of tax increases, spending cuts, and reforms from 2010 to 2016, which at times triggered local riots and nationwide protests. Despite these efforts, the country required bailout loans in 2010, 2012, and 2015 from the International Monetary Fund, Eurogroup, and European Central Bank, and negotiated a 50% "haircut" on debt owed to private banks in 2011.


You both face some very tough questions, if not proceedings.
==> How come nobody asked these tough questions there or anywhere else but just said "Poor Greeks and that villainous EU"? (Poor Greek people... not many poor politicians!).

With respect to Greece, for the time being I'll have to respect your assertions, I don't recall it that way, but I'll do some reading.
I'll be shocked if a national economy managed to manipulate its financial position to the extent you outline, but as I say I don't have the knowledge on this one...

==> Yes, well, my example of a mythical bent loan etc... is a potted version of what happened with Greece - who are FAR from blameless and as usual those who took the finance ard doing fine while the citizens who have to pay it back for them are "all in it together - just as we still are! They are the people I feel sorry for - but the blame lies in their own country:

But instead of just crying "poor Greece" and simply blaming the EU etc - I went and looked at what happened. Words like "Why did you stick your finger in the fire just because someone else did?" come to mind.
-

So far as your knowledge/opinion goes, everyone else seems to blindly blame those awful EU people who forced them at gunpoint to borrow money (and presumably helped them out later at gunpoint too! I don't think either side is totally blameless but you have to ask for a loan to get it!

And btw: My "outrage" occurs simply because people throw it at me because (unlike our PM) I quite openly was and still would be in favour of remaining and I've said that I have to accept that we're leaving but I will continue to expose what that vote is costing (two years before we leave, even!). Still, I'm waiting for the next black economy country to get into problems...

 

[Frosty149]

So far as your knowledge/opinion goes, everyone else seems to blindly blame those awful EU people who forced them at gunpoint to borrow money (and presumably helped them out later at gunpoint too! I don't think either side is totally blameless but you have to ask for a loan to get it!

And btw: My "outrage" occurs simply because people throw it at me because (unlike our PM) I quite openly was and still would be in favour of remaining and I've said that I have to accept that we're leaving but I will continue to expose what that vote is costing (two years before we leave, even!). Still, I'm waiting for the next black economy country to get into problems...

Ok Dave, following my admission of ignorance re: Greece and their manipulation of EU entry figures.
Your correct, they fudged, lied and misrepresented their GDP and national economic data etc. on their entry submissions to the EU.
The EU is fairly widely reported as knowing this at the time, but did nothing to verify or challenge?
Greece were not alone several others are accused of the same - Portugal and Italy notably!
When Greece held up its hands (after a change of govt) the then head, complimented them on their 'transparency'!

3+ bailouts later their economy is in ruins, the EU (under German/French dictate) has imposed severe austerity measures to keep them afloat.

60% of the young are unemployed, about 25% of the workforce total are unemployed and the populace are in near revolt.
There is a real possibility they will be forced out of the union...

Ironically, as Greece borrowed its way into huge national debt, sucking in imports it couldn't afford, the Germans and French sat back and offered credit to them with their goods and services...

There are others to follow Greece looking at the numbers.

Without making any political point, the EU failed to check or engage in any diligence, it was bent, at the time, on expansion.

So, I have learned today
My interpretation, as always is open to challenge

 

[Frontstep]

"Without making any political point, the EU failed to check or engage in any diligence, it was bent, at the time, on expansion."


Yep that sums it up Wonga, Brussels branch, went into a monetary union with a country (not the first) that cooked its books on an open fire in front of them they even supplied the pot, gas and stirred it.
Wonga claims they didn't see anything.

One of the existing members Germany brought beer to the party and sold Greece some more arms just to cement their relationship.

Greece can't pay its debts, their friends in Germany have sobered up and got home, the Greek peasants who have been told repeatedly their friends in Euro La la Land will help are getting sick of tightening their tight belts and Mrs Germany has cut off all favours for Mr Germany.

So hands up who wants to leave La la Land before they skint us.

 

[Frosty149]

"Without making any political point, the EU failed to check or engage in any diligence, it was bent, at the time, on expansion."


Yep that sums it up Wonga, Brussels branch, went into a monetary union with a country (not the first) that cooked its books on an open fire in front of them they even supplied the pot, gas and stirred it.
Wonga claims they didn't see anything.

One of the existing members Germany brought beer to the party and sold Greece some more arms just to cement their relationship.

Greece can't pay its debts, their friends in Germany have sobered up and got home, the Greek peasants who have been told repeatedly their friends in Euro La la Land will help are getting sick of tightening their tight belts and Mrs Germany has cut off all favours for Mr Germany.

So hands up who wants to leave La la Land before they skint us.

Yep, you couldn't make it up...
"What's in it for us"
Bonjour or Gutten,
As they say, but less of the 'merci' or 'danke'
Then again look up danker German urban translation for a giggle...

 

[davemercedes]

Yep, you couldn't make it up...
"What's in it for us"
Bonjour or Gutten,
As they say, but less of the 'merci' or 'danke'
Then again look up danker German urban translation for a giggle...

So you're all saying poor little innocent (bent) Greece was simply skewered by the EU.
- Wish I'd been a fly on the wall when they held them at gunpoint and said: "You WILL borrow billions!"

As I've said repeatedly regarding us and Greece - it was the politicians who signed all treaties, had the gravy and did nothing to correct anything that was wrong (except the arch villainess Maggie Thatcher!).

Nevertheless, we had thirty of the most rewarding years within the EU but so much is going to be thrown away.
- We've already thrown away 15% of the pound in our pocket since the referendum
- And inflation is already at 2.9% - probably over 3 next month (warnings from Carney, BOE)
- Still we're going to be "back in control". That must be true 'cause Bumbling Boris said so.
...The truth is quite boring isn't it!

btw:
I've just seen the Beeb page announcing the signoff of the Tory/DUP stitchup agreement (the deal engineered by/on behalf of the woman who wanted to uphold the will of the people by holding a General Election!) They have very carefully avoided telling the electorate what it cost. - The last figure quoted was £2Bn (for the NI budget).

- Still nothing more than 1 percent forthcoming for our firefighters etc, though!