Brexit

[Big Cheese]

And you've just demonstrated my point.
An argument can be made for an MP to support his local constituency or the (advisory and non-binding) national referendum result.

Each is valid so an MP can't really be criticised either way if his local constituency did not favour the Brexit result.

My local MP vote to remain whilst his constituents voted overwhelmly to leave.That's his choice,he too was part of the nationwide vote.
Should he now be made to vote leave in line with his constituents if there was another referendum?
I have just returned from Italy & almost all the Italians I spoke to wish they were getting a vote on leaving too.

 

[LostKiwi]

My local MP vote to remain whilst his constituents voted overwhelmly to leave.That's his choice,he too was part of the nationwide vote.
Should he now be made to vote leave in line with his constituents if there was another referendum?

No, and thats not what I said. I was referring to matters before parliament and not individual choice. Your comment is clearly ludicrous as it would presuppose the MP has knowledge of his local electorate's voting result before he can himself vote!

I have just returned from Italy & almost all the Italians I spoke to wish they were getting a vote on leaving too.

We can all spout statements like that (I've seen the opposite in France where our neighbours think we're mad to be leaving).
It will depend entirely on the people you associate with and to a lesser degree what they think you may want to hear.

 

[Yugguy]

I don't believe I was fooled, thank you.

My vote was based primarily on avoiding a United States of Europe, something I still believe is the end goal of the EU.

 

[davemercedes]

I am more than happy to have a balanced discussion but someone who trawls the internet looking for bad news and then revels in it is not really worth discussing anything with.

As I said just one out of five articles highlighting advantages might help to give some authority.

Those of us who employ people are in the main optimistic about our future, the UK is not a laughing stock at all.

We are still world leaders in many fields and will continue to be despite the remoaners siren voices trying to beach our country.

You are obviously not happy to have any discussion that doesn't agree with your thoughts and posting of true reports and happenings are just "sirens" eh?

The postings are the headlines from Reuters at the weekend concerning the economy, business and the effects of Brexit - all of them - even the odd and possibly encouraging one.
- Reporters wrote these editorials - I didn't.
- And the people (not) spending money have shown what is happening in the real world.

I didn't vote for Brexit, I'm just suffering for it. But it seems you expect me say nothing when things are going down the tubes?
I've done my kow to to democracy and accepted albeit reluctantly that we're leaving but don't expect me for one minute to stop pointing out what a nonsense it all is and how it's hurting and the feeble attempts in Brussels making us look like idiots in Europe. I have no doubt the Brexquitters think our abortive attempt to dictate "negotiations" is all the EU's fault.

Just take the EU Citizenship - that could have been settled in a two or three conversations nine months or more ago - and I would assume the same is wanted on both sides. But we couldn't even approach that without making an offer that they were certain to dismiss... Negotiations?

Why don't you post loads of good news to help me change my mind.
- Oh... perhaps there isn't any (I certainly wish there was...)?

 

[Headhurts]

You say “You are doing what I asked people not to do”. Who are you to tell me? You seem to forget that in this country we are free to criticise those in power – especially those like the ones we have occupying the plum jobs ineffectively today.

Democracy is at risk here? What? - A position-grabbing PM is leading a divided government into the fray and continuing to treat our EU opposite numbers (with whom we need to create a feeling of goodwill) with ongoing arrogance and at home carries on setting out what she wants to impose regardless of the wishes of the electorate (like the things that cost her the promised "landslide" at the last election. And none of the incumbent ministers have the guts to do anything to get rid of her! In fact, they appear to have hung on to her because nobody else wants to be held up as responsible for the ultimate failure of this debacle. And btw I've been to similar social gatherings as you and I've heard many people saying they: -

• Didn't really understand the voting process
• Didn't realise that changes (like tariff charges) could and would happen
• Didn’t understand about the “Single Market” benefits – thought we would just carry on without paying any EU fees.
• Many older people just wanted to get rid of foreigners (I’ve even heard “second world war” type comments)
• They were convinced that "Project Fear" was just that and did not believe they would see the increased prices that are happening.
• School leavers (now old enough to vote) would certainly vote Remain given the chance.

I've also heard leavers saying they would vote the other way today so that's tit for tat if you want to make an argument for a re-run vote...

- But so what – they didn't vote that way- and that negates both arguments.
- Doesn’t make it a good thing, though!

Now... ASSUME makes an ASS out U and ME!
- And your words suggest by omission that people who lean to the right are not democratic!

As it happens, my political leanings have always been to the right although I always expected the right to deliver fair solutions to the electorate and since I first voted (even through the Thatcher years) I voted Tory, frankly only because I thought they were the best of a lousy choice. But when Mayhem did another U-turn and went for a General Election with the obvious intention of simply wiping out any opposition (err, did you mention democracy???), I realised they were no longer the best choice so I voted for another party (not labour) because frankly I've had enough and I don't believe I will ever vote Tory again. I posted as much at that time (and nobody here offered a "best choice" in that discussion).

In parallel with the Brexit campaign, I have felt very uncomfortable about the way this government and their predecessors have "run" (?) the economy and for example created even more "QE money" that the banks who caused the problems in the first place simply grabbed and put into their balance sheets (as opposed to bolstering business) so that to my utter embarrassment I saw that the NHS has been driven into the ground and it's true in the 21st century that nurses amongst others have had perforce to use food banks and the party who always stood for law and order have raped police numbers and created a majority who are disillusioned and the numbers leaving/planning to leave have never been so high.

Just look at the economic news: the first surplus for 15 years which was announced with a fanfare of trumpets like a great achievement... This would be good news if it had been achieved by prudent management but it hasn't, has it? It's only been achieved via austerity but it hasn't helped our debt repayments (the cost of borrowing continues at a higher rate because one of the first reactions in the "real" world judging our Brexit decision was to cut back our credit rating!

You seem to miss my point about Mayhem - again as I have posted before, she campaigned to remain then when Cameron left, she did one of her many U-turns in order to get the "big job" - months ago I posted quotes of about a dozen public statements she made pro-remain then later on said the exact opposite pro-leave. The woman is a purely self-interested liar pretending to care about the electorate with all her "blessed" ambitions to put injustices right (look up - there's one overhead: "oink flippin' oink"). She is unfortunately also without substance as we shall see from the result of this week's trip to Japan - I'll bet my wallet she comes back with nothing although it will be proclaimed as a "good, constructive meeting blah blah"...

And the news from the latest EU "negotiations" is just what I expected, unfortunately: -

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-41106507
- No decisive progress on Brexit - Barnier

Bearing in mind the news last week was headlined "Britain in 'good position' in Brexit talks - May's spokeswoman" it's not surprising that Barnier - the one who matters most (simply because he represents the other 27 EU countries) says "no decisive progress this week”. But our representative, Davis says "Brexit talks make 'concrete progress'..." (who's telling porkies, then?).

And once again, the one country who is leaving and has the weakest hand of all is calling on the other 27 "to be "more imaginative and flexible in its approach" (look up again....). Boris can tell him what will happen – the 27 will tell us to "go and whistle!". Yes, as you say the EU team must be laughing their socks off - right from the beginning we have had no plan and the civil servants have only recently produced the documents which are regarded as a (bad) joke.

I have not asked for an opportunity to keep voting until the vote goes the way I like (Yes, once again you are putting words in my mouth). I have stated on a number of occasions that I albeit reluctantly, accept the vote but that will not stop me pointing out - ever, the harm the leave process is doing to our country. Interestingly, before the Brexit result was published, that "great democrat" Nigel Fridge Magnet went on record to say that if the referendum result showed a low balance in favour of remain (i.e.: along the percentage lines by which the Brexquitters actually won) he intended to call for a re-run!

Theresa Mayhem has announced today that she wants to stay in the job through to the next election so all we have to look forward to is more of the same. If that happens we're pretty sure to see the Euro at 1:1 with the Pound by the end of the year - not even "shrinkflation" will hide the prices then!

I said from the very beginning that the EU will give us precisely what they choose to give. “Negotiation” is only a word and there’s not much of it! We certainly won’t achieve much while we continue the arrogant methodology that’s been in place so far.

Blimey Dave, I seemed to have worded my post badly, it was never my intention to tell you or anyone anything.

I did want to avoid the normal posts like this, it was more my intention to make the discussion more about the behaviour of our MP,s

I cannot see where I have suggested right or left leaning people are not democratic but if you take it as such I apologise.

My impression is that the EU are the ones making this awkward particularly wanting to discuss a bill up front which seems skewed to me but you may see it differently

I'm not going down the route of picking out bits of each thread to jump on it this is merely me trying to explain my post.

So Dave apologies to you for seemingly upsetting you it's never my intention and I apologise for getting your politics wrong, it just goes to show that you should never assume.

Robin


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[Craiglxviii]

The issue for MPs with the referendum is that the referendum followed different voting criteria for the referendum as opposed to the criteria for electing MPs. This sets up the situation where though the referendum may have voted one way the constituency didn't and this in turn sets up a dilemna for the MP.
If an MPs constituency didn't vote in favour of the national referendum should the MP then go against their constituency and support the national vote or should they support their constituency and go against the national vote?

Late to this argument so apologies for that. That in itself is a simple question to answer: an MP represents his or her constituents, as he/ she is their representative in the Commons. If the MP wants to be returned in the next bye-election then he/ she must continue to support the constituency interests.

Of course that's not quite how real life works- 3-line whip and all- but that's the principle of it. And therein lies the huge problem with PR... imagine such an issue where the MPs worked directly for Party interests and not for their constituents.

 

[davemercedes]

Blimey Dave, I seemed to have worded my post badly, it was never my intention to tell you or anyone anything.

I did want to avoid the normal posts like this, it was more my intention to make the discussion more about the behaviour of our MP,s

I cannot see where I have suggested right or left leaning people are not democratic but if you take it as such I apologise.

My impression is that the EU are the ones making this awkward particularly wanting to discuss a bill up front which seems skewed to me but you may see it differently

I'm not going down the route of picking out bits of each thread to jump on it this is merely me trying to explain my post.

So Dave apologies to you for seemingly upsetting you it's never my intention and I apologise for getting your politics wrong, it just goes to show that you should never assume.

Robin


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Pax, Robin.

But I'm concerned that the EU are not the ones who are being awkward - they demanded a sequence of events and the UK negotiator gave a half-response to it (in particular about EU citizens etc) which it seems caused a lot of bad feeling. So instead of biting the bullet and having further discussion and settlement our negotiator seems to have shut up shop.

Then, this week the EU are told "to be imaginative"...

 

[Xtractorfan]

"Democracy is the will of the people who voted the way the politicians wanted them to"

Is this some giant conspiracy theory in its infancy ?

I must assume you were previously an ardent Brexiteer seduced by David Cameron into losing your voting virginity did you leave your drink unattended ?

I know its dull but I simply kept my pants on and voted freely like everyone else.

Everyone talks about democracy, but you will find those who do are referring to a decision in their favour. Can you just for one moment try and think how quiet Nigel Farage would have been had the vote gone the other way.. Would he have said it was a democratic vote .. I would doubt it.. therein is my meaning .
As for me being a brexiteer and a believer of slick sleazy Lying David the tosser and his band of merry liars, I would seriously doubt that. His whole premiership was based on deceiving the electorate and making himself look good..Amazing how well it worked out for him...
How they managed to shaft you with your pants still on amazes me greatly.

 

[Frontstep]

I am unsullied, Cameron, Milliband, Blair,Clegg,Farron etc etc all failed to seduce me.
The Farage factor is relevant,
He made me look for myself, his extraordinary tales seemed the stuff of pantomime but on inspection they were true.
A useful organisation of nations was corrupt and failing I couldn't support it or our membership, but then I accept I am it seems unusual as I could read the words on the side of a red bus and understand them.
I can even work out that we are still in the EU and even more bizarrely it seems can see trade opportunities around the shrinking world.

 

[Frontstep]

I am extraordinarily happy with the way negotiations are going, much to my surprise it appears Davis and his team are standing up well for UK plc I had feared they would roll over easily but they haven't.
Barniers frustration that he is unable to bully us is clear evidence that it is not the one sided dictation that many foretold.
If Barnier was in the strong position many mistakenly thought he was he would quite simply give us his agenda to initial.
In strict financial terms they need us and at the back of Barnier are the many vested interests in the remaining countries who want us and our business.
Barnier may bluster to save face but he is clearly not getting the easy ride he wanted.

 

[LostKiwi]

I am unsullied, Cameron, Milliband, Blair,Clegg,Farron etc etc all failed to seduce me.
The Farage factor is relevant,
He made me look for myself, his extraordinary tales seemed the stuff of pantomime but on inspection they were true.
A useful organisation of nations was corrupt and failing I couldn't support it or our membership, but then I accept I am it seems unusual as I could read the words on the side of a red bus and understand them.
I can even work out that we are still in the EU and even more bizarrely it seems can see trade opportunities around the shrinking world.

To paraphrase the bible (for your post reads like that of a born again Christian talking about religion):
The crowds replied, “This is Farage, the prophet from the UK” Then Farage went into the EU parliament and overturned the tables of the EU and drove out all who were working towards a better Europe there. He overturned the tables of the traders and seats of those seeking unity and he declared to them 'My house will be an independent UK but you are making it part of a state'

Its clear who your 'messiah' is!

I didn't use anyone else's 'tales' to form my decision. I used logic, researched what the likely outcome of a leave vote would be (which has been largely accurate to date though I hope it doesn't continue to be so), investigated claims and on balance made my decision and voted remain. I'd still vote remain if we had another vote.

I accept we will be leaving but I shake my head at the lack of ability of some to understand the facts when presented with them to understand the harm being done by the UKs arrogance in the negotiations. Britain is not the world power it was in the 19th century yet that 19th century attitude still persists (a bit like the English attitude to 1966 with football - never mind the Germans have won the World Cup three times in the intervening years).

No matter what your Brexit persuasion you either need to have your head in the sand or be hard of thinking not to see the country is in decline. We are growing at a lower rate than all our European neighbours and some third world nations.
Inflation is on the rise. Exports are not doing well in spite of the decline of the pound.

What price sovereignty?

 

[Frontstep]

see post 6410 above

I am extraordinarily happy with the way negotiations are going, much to my surprise it appears Davis and his team are standing up well for UK plc I had feared they would roll over easily but they haven't.
Barniers frustration that he is unable to bully us is clear evidence that it is not the one sided dictation that many foretold.
If Barnier was in the strong position many mistakenly thought he was he would quite simply give us his agenda to initial.
In strict financial terms they need us and at the back of Barnier are the many vested interests in the remaining countries who want us and our business.
Barnier may bluster to save face but he is clearly not getting the easy ride he wanted.

 

[LostKiwi]

Repeated himself

Unlike some I'm not hard of reading so I did see your post and responded but clearly you missed that it was a response.

Why is a computer like an Australian?
They both have to have information punched into them.

Why is a computer different to an Australian?
With a computer you normally only have to do it once.

I'm not Australian

(Apologies to any Aussies for using an old joke to make a point)

 

[Yugguy]

Why is it assumed that the UK is the belligerent one and the EU are the high-minded beacons of fairness?

We have NO idea what is going on behind those doors and the pronouncements in both sides should be taken with a large pinch of salt.

 

[Big Cheese]

Surely the Eurozone's economy is only on the up due to the level of quantitative easing being pumped in by the ECB?
Some estimates run at around £70bn a month.

 

[Craiglxviii]

What price sovereignty?

Good question... I wonder what Ukraine would answer to that? Sorry- being serious, Poland, Romania, Bulgaria, Hungary up until the early 90s. What price would they have put on their sovereignity from a monolithic state, the council of which is unelected and the political worldview rather different from their own native one? It does make one wonder.

 

[davemercedes]

Interesting question posed on TV this morning:

We know what we're losing by leaving the EU...
Describe (seriously, without jokes etc please) 3 x things we will gain by leaving the EU.
- That means things we don't/can't have or do now!

We're going to be away for a couple of days so it will be interesting to read the response if any... when I return.

Typical... just as the weather is changing.
- Ah... Must be due to Brexit!

 

[Craiglxviii]

Interesting question posed on TV this morning:

We know what we're losing by leaving the EU...
Describe (seriously, without jokes etc please) 3 x things we will gain by leaving the EU.
- That means things we don't/can't have or do now!

We're going to be away for a couple of days so it will be interesting to read the response if any... when I return.

Typical... just as the weather is changing.
- Ah... Must be due to Brexit!

Just 3 things off the top of my head- all arguable I'll grant you.

Farming/ fishing- we move away from the CAP & CFP. We no longer have to support eg the French highly inefficient farming system; instead the gubmint can support our own farmers directly. The British sea-fishing industry can also then be directly supported.

Border security- we can limit immigration to the "desirables" eg skilled workers of known provenance and massively reduce unskilled labour, which (/rose tinted gegs on) should, in conjunction with a revised benefits policy, then open up unskilled jobs to our home-grown unemployed (/rose tinted gegs off).

Standards- we can now set our own Standards again.

Meanwhile, one thing that came out in a BBC R4 interview yesterday that, unsurprisingly was totally not seized upon, was the Japanese viewpoint. This from Abe-san's senior political advisor. "We have always felt a very strong kinship with the United Kingdom. We would always wish to preferentially deal with the United Kingdom over the rest of Europe. The visit of PM May will end with a clear message that two independent, prosperous maritime nations can each work together to make their way successfully". This morning I heard that the Japanese government had made very clear noises that any JPN:UK trade deal will be almost if not toally identical to the JPN: EU free trade deal. So, that's not only a very good thing in general but a very straight indicator that flinty-eyed capitalists are willing to do business with us on terms equal to that of other major players.

 

[Frontstep]

Absolutely the good news is buried as it doesn't suit the current post Brexit dysphasia.
We are fighting our corner very well it seems and the misguided notion that we will be rolled over and left to float in the sea is proving to be tosh.

As always money is at the route of trade and cooperation and why would any sane country want to lose trading partners ?
The Bankers gambling debts are not just ours to pay.
Most economies need trade more than pandering to posturing politicians trying punish the UK for upsetting their EU superstate plans.
We are in a strong position as evidenced by Barniers frustration, things are looking up.

 

[Wighty]

Great speech by David Davis earlier today (from the US ) , he came across very positive and professional . I was almost motivated to sing the National Anthem whilst wearing my German Merc T-shirt ....Well almost .
Mrs Wighty and I were both uplifted by the speech .
We are off to check our southern sea border in a couple of weeks when we drive to southern Spain .