Brexit

[PovertySpec]

...... yet.

Indeed. That speech. Do remainers get it yet? Why it was essential to vote leave?

 

[LostKiwi]

Nope, but then I was never against a federal Europe.

 

[M80]

The argument that the UK could have prevented immigration from outside the eu but didn't has fault.

Larisa, from Russia, came in 2003.
I was solely responsible for her and the kids upkeep from the time she arrived. She was forbidden taking employment for 6 months. That alone is a significant financial deterant. BTW I'm not complaining I knew that bit and could appreciate its purpose.

When it came for her to apply for citizenship there was an exam to pass and an application fee. The exam wasn't ott, but somewhat difficult for someone without reasonable ability to use the English language. Not a silly design methinks.

The application fee of £250 also included for the application for her younger daughter. Her son was due to pass 18 during the application period. Keen not to over sponsor and wipe back sides I made them responsible for the application being correct saying my financial contribution would be available for a one time only attempt, there are 'agencies' willing to assist for a fee, but not with my dosh.
To digress a little, during this time another Russian in the UK had made Larisa aware that child benefit would be available. My view was that I hadn't brought them here to bleed from the cash rich state, so it didn't happen. This of course does contradict the point I am making here.

Anyway Larisa applied, she and daughter were ok but the son was rejected due to his age. When he later applied the cost had risen to £750.

Some years later the sons Russian friend had to pay £1,200 (or there abouts) for the citizenship application.

A couple of weeks ago we were drinking, after sailing, with a couple that are Bulgarian. Both have professional jobs that I would view as being beneficial to our economy, that is not just picking carrots that could be done by any of our home grown unemployed (example). The guy had applied for citizenship presumably to maintain what some question would be continued rights for eu citizens to continue to work here post Brexit. The cost to him is now around the £2k mark.

There are increasing costs, then additional admin barriers and requirements of evidence, and delays that seem to be ever growing. So the deterants, not obvious to the UK population, are actually being used in attempt to slow immigration, imho.

For me it's easy to see that when a Gov't openly attempts to stop immigration the press give us story after story of the injustice of sending whoever back to where they originated, or not allowing a family to come and join such and such who have been here for so many years.

Back in 2003 I was ignorant to immigration generally and didn't give it much thought. Since Larisa arrived and I've seen some antics of those that she has associated with (a local Gov't sponsored English language development course springs to mind) I've learnt that many see the UK as having ability to give without thought of giving back. Some don't respect our laws as their culture didn't apply the same.

More relevant is that immigration when controlled correctly is good for the UK.

 

[Craiglxviii]

Nope, but then I was never against a federal Europe.

The issue I have with it is that Europe is made up of a significant number of culturally very different states. They are also economically very different. Federalising Europe effectively imposes a one-size-fits-all situation on them which the people of those countries tend to find goes rather against the grain of what they (as a gestalt national mindset) want.

Federalising the 13 Colonies was hard enough and that was when they all (mostly) wanted to join into a United States, had a common enemy to galvanise them and (at the time) came from only a few main cultural backgrounds.

 

[LostKiwi]

What you're talking about there Martin is citizenship, not immigration.
I have been living in the UK for nearly 30 years but am not a UK citizen as I never saw the need to apply (and still don't given the exorbitant costs and that it really doesn't offer me any benefits over what I have now).
Many of those who enter the UK do so without ever taking UK citizenship if they have just reason to gain access in the first place.

Its the tightening of the rules giving access for those who never apply for citizenship that would make a bigger impact.

 

[M80]

But LK, many of the nationals that give so many people here concerns over immigration need a visa to enter.
A citizen, even a 2nd hand citizen (as I jokingly refer to them) don't.

Larisa and co enter and leave Russia on their Russian passport, and like wise do the same in the UK. Any, non dual citizen Russian, needs to present my letter of invitation, proof of my financial ability with copy of my bank accounts and their evidence of a real life in Russia worth returning to, to the British consulate in Moscow. They pay the ever increasing fee and wait several weeks to learn if they are granted access to the UK. I suggest, ignoring the tit for tat requirements for Russians, that other nationals will require similar.

Without Citizenship it is 'feasible' for you and others to require a visa to come home at some point in the future.
Those that require a visa to enter now, unless they go underground, don't migrate as they have a defined period on their visa.

 

[M80]

I digress some, again.
There is a misperception that our borders are easily abused by those wishing to enter.

Several years ago now Larisa and self were returning from the far east.
Dubai was the transit stop and we had a couple of hours at the departure gate to Manchester. A local immigration official had walked the several hundred yards from the main terminal down to seek out Larisa. He requested her passport and gave it careful scrutiny, on being satisfied she had permanent leave to reside in the UK handed it back and walked back to the terminal.

After a little head scratching I deduced that we have agreement with that port to prevent unauthorised travellers to make it to the UK, I became impressed. I assume that w/o an applicable visa of some sort Larisa would have been returned to Moscow.

Each time we go through a middle eastern airport Larisa is detained at customs as they go through her hand baggage with particular interest in her electronic devices.

Sometimes relevant measures to protect us from what ever unwanted situation is reassuring, it beats the pretend security of Egypt for example.

 

[M80]

Federalising the 13 Colonies was hard enough and that was when they all (mostly) wanted to join into a United States, had a common enemy to galvanise them and (at the time) came from only a few main cultural backgrounds.

I question why the eu feel the need for their own army.
I also question the financing of Greece to increase its armaments, and become more significant as an armed nation.

Do the eu envisage a fight down there?
Is this to support their ambitions of expansion?
Who, which country if you prefer, is the threat to expansion, or even generally?

I have some thoughts on this and don't like any of 'em

 

[Yugguy]

The issue I have with a federalised Europe is that centralised government.

You can't apply the same rules to a Corsican fisherman or a French farmer or a Scottish butcher.

 

[LostKiwi]

Agreed its not easy going in and out of the UK - my NZ passport always comes in for scrutiny as it has no Visas, stamps or other indication of indefinite leave to remain. I carry my original 30 year old passport that has a stamp in it with 'Indefinite leave to remain' and that 30 year old passport is what grants me access. My last passport had a Certificate of Right to Abode in it which grants the same thing but costs £80 and is valid for the life of the passport only. The stupid thing is the Right to Abode is a birth right and requires an Indefinite Leave to Remain in order to be granted.

Anyway I digress onto silly processes and procedures...

The question is not so much how difficult it is to get into the UK through passport control but more how the criteria for granting visas is applied or implemented. Perhaps the rules are too lax and this is why immigration is such an issue. For example should we grant indefinite leave to remain to those whose grandparents were born here or just restrict it to children?

Bearing in mind only 61% of non-EU immigrants have employment and are nett contributors to the economy should we be looking at that instead of curtailing immigration from the EU where 81% of immigrants have employment and are contributing? Bear in mind 75% of the home grown population are in employment. Should we not be looking to the non-EU immigrants and finding out why such a low percentage are in employment and then doing something about that?

 

[M80]

I return to an argument I raised many months ago.

If all people working are a financial benefit to the UK why is our national debt continually increasing?
I deduce that we are all a net burden to the economy and we are spending more than we actually contribute. Where that money is being spent is a whole other topic.

This being 'my case' it follows that all immigration generally will cause a net cost to us, I phrase it like that as clearly some individuals are a greater benefit than others.

Then the argument that there are less immigrants unemployed than Brits, I see that reduce immigration and cause more Brits to take up the employment that they are so far allowing immigrants to take up.
We are back to pc and press. The Gov't have been reducing the attractiveness / ease of access to the benefits system for a long while now, quite possibly that has been too extreme?

The long term result surely must be less people sponging and more seeking employment. Those innocents in need of assistance getting hurt along the way is a serious downside, and the press make full use of that.

More Brits in employment and there is less need for immigrants to fill the labour gaps.

 

[malcolm E53 AMG]

How many of us here even knew who our MEP was? The greatest danger to democracy is apathy and when it came to the EU elections the population were very apathetic. You only need to look at the turnouts compared to other EU members.

Correct and doesn't that explain why we are leaving the EU, we have indeed been disinterested in MEPs and their activities and pretty much treated it as a sideshow and Politicians from both sides of the political spectrum have taken this as an opportunity to signs treaties and agreements drawing us further in the European experiment ignoring and vilifying any public comment against the federalist vision in Brussels

In my view Maestricht was a turning point and thanks to Nigel Farage and UKIP the game was up, Brussels must really hate that man but it vindicates the democracy we live in thankfully

 

[Craiglxviii]

The issue I have with a federalised Europe is that centralised government.

You can't apply the same rules to a Corsican fisherman or a French farmer or a Scottish butcher.

Remember that the EU's political worldview is Liberalism, which says that anything which increases the order in a given system is good (and also therefore that anything which decreases the order in any system must be, by definition, bad). So, creating a system whereby all farmers are treated the same regardless of where they are located must increase the order of the system in which they work- even if by doing so that has other, less palatable consequences. It is the increase of order which is desired.

The same issue underlines the whole EU Force/ "Euro Army" meme. The desire isn't the creation of a supranational armed force for its own ends, it is that in doing so it will increase the order of the system which the national armed forces operate.

Now, how that is all perceived by people who do not share that political worldview- not least of whom are we Brits- is another matter........

 

[LostKiwi]

Correct and doesn't that explain why we are leaving the EU, we have indeed been disinterested in MEPs and their activities and pretty much treated it as a sideshow and Politicians from both sides of the political spectrum have taken this as an opportunity to signs treaties and agreements drawing us further in the European experiment ignoring and vilifying any public comment against the federalist vision in Brussels

In my view Maestricht was a turning point and thanks to Nigel Farage and UKIP the game was up, Brussels must really hate that man but it vindicates the democracy we live in thankfully

No it was because we were disinterested we didn't help make the EU what we wanted by pushing our MEPs to do so.
This allowed Farago with his own personal agenda the opportunity to take the UK out of the EU.
We allowed that man to sit there taking his MEP paypacket and allowances for failing to turn up to votes and shape the EU in the way we would have wanted, then dress it all up as a success for anti-federalism.
I strongly suspect that if we had MEPs who believed in the EU and who fought Britains corner we would not be leaving now. Instead of which apathy allowed a bunch of dissenters in to take the UK out.

 

[Craiglxviii]

No it was because we were disinterested we didn't help make the EU what we wanted by pushing our MEPs to do so.
This allowed Farago with his own personal agenda the opportunity to take the UK out of the EU.
We allowed that man to sit there taking his MEP paypacket and allowances for failing to turn up to votes and shape the EU in the way we would have wanted, then dress it all up as a success for anti-federalism.
I strongly suspect that if we had MEPs who believed in the EU and who fought Britains corner we would not be leaving now. Instead of which apathy allowed a bunch of dissenters in to take the UK out.

Apathy is a good term, it's endemic in a lot of Western politics- as in, apathy in the electorate.

 

[malcolm E53 AMG]

No it was because we were disinterested we didn't help make the EU what we wanted by pushing our MEPs to do so.
This allowed Farago with his own personal agenda the opportunity to take the UK out of the EU.
We allowed that man to sit there taking his MEP paypacket and allowances for failing to turn up to votes and shape the EU in the way we would have wanted, then dress it all up as a success for anti-federalism.
I strongly suspect that if we had MEPs who believed in the EU and who fought Britains corner we would not be leaving now. Instead of which apathy allowed a bunch of dissenters in to take the UK out.

Don't forget we weren't one of the founding members and our position has always been marginalised, Belgium, France, Germany, Italy, Luxembourg and the Netherlands were the group of six founding members.

Many UK politicians have tried to have influence on EU dictates with little success, Cameron's being the most transparent rebuttal as far as the electorate were concerned and Thatcher's being the most successful

 

[keefysher]

Agreed its not easy going in and out of the UK - my NZ passport always comes in for scrutiny as it has no Visas, stamps or other indication of indefinite leave to remain. I carry my original 30 year old passport that has a stamp in it with 'Indefinite leave to remain' and that 30 year old passport is what grants me access. My last passport had a Certificate of Right to Abode in it which grants the same thing but costs £80 and is valid for the life of the passport only. The stupid thing is the Right to Abode is a birth right and requires an Indefinite Leave to Remain in order to be granted.

Anyway I digress

I'll pick up your digression....

For many years I worked all over the world, often at short notice to travel. I had 2 live passports, usually to enable me travel with 1 that had the necessary visas and permits where I was frequently going to be. The other for obtaining visas that were due to expire or new ones. I had an expired passport that had full multi entry, long stay, business and non, lifetime of me visas that I carried at all times due to my often changed itineraries. Basically I could go anywhere I need to go, occasionally with US Dollar notes inside the front cover if required.

Then came political interference. Bare in mind my work was delivering major infrastructure and industry to often developing countries. I then needed another, what I called, 'dirty' passport. That had the difficult visas in it. Where some countries wouldn't allow you in if you had a blacklisted country stamp in your passport. WTF the particular political stupidity countries had with others really was none of my concern. I was doing my job.

That was the plan. Until I had to go to Oz on 7 days notice for an extended stay of indeterminate length. I only had my dirty passport available in the office, as I was in another country at the time. Fly into the UK, attend a visa interview for Oz, get the visa, off on the plane. That plane landed in an Arab country en route and had to deplane and go through immigration, with Israeli visa and work permit and a South African Visa. How embarrassing. So I used my none of my business line and fortunately got through. Later on that self same trip I had a problem with the SA visa in another country. But I live to tell the tale!!

A few years later I entered the US on holiday using my dead passport with lifelong full monty visa. Left Chicago on the Saturday 8th September immediately prior to 9/11. A few months later I rocked up at Chicago O'Hare going in after boarding in London with no probs with my same visa. Got to ORD, presented my visa and current passport. Got the passport with my full monty visa torn up in front of me and carted off for a grilling by US Immigration. Not the usual friendly welcome.

Over the years since 9/11 have found the US border to be less than friendly.

We were in Hamburg the other week, on the QM2. Noticed how rude and aggressive Germans have become.

Perhaps these changes in friendliness are given by various events: i.e. US - 9/11. Germany - reunification. Brexit.

 

[Xtractorfan]

You carry on reading your Daily Mirror and believe all will be well in the fantasy world of comrade Corbyn.
Both are obviously right all the time and never tell mistruths. Wake up.

I don't post rubbish but to be honest, I don't give a flying one what you think of my opinion.

Same here matey never read the brit press... it ain't all sunshine I know, but its kinda just soo much better when the 'riff raff' can have a good time as well.... I do realise u don't mean to post rubbish, BUt what is written, is written, and your name is on it, and its utter tosh and fabrications made up by the Tory Party spin doctors... but pride and being wrong wont let you revisit it.
Over and out.

 

[Cole@MBS]

Boys. We are getting complaints again on this thread, Mr X, your name keeps cropping up!! Im not gonna read hundreds of posts to catch on this subject but keep it friendly, we don't want to have to close this thread but will if we get anymore complaints!!

 

[Frontstep]

Post the complaints,where do the complainants sit on the process ?

I have disagreements due to me being pro Brexit but despite the sometimes florid language nothing to me is offensive and if I have crossed some imaginary line then point it out.