Mercedes = Rust

[hawk20]

Does MB do this - fit uprated/redesigned components - outside of a recall, say at the next service?

REGARDS

Phil

Yes they do. They recently fitted improved gas-filled struts to my E class estate, free while being serviced, because the older type were not working too well in very cold weather last winter. My brother's A class has had numerous updates done too.

 

[television]

Careful Malcolm. You are not supposed to say nice things about MB or their dealers on this forum or you will accused of being a brown-nose.

That is not fair Hawk, I love MB and would not drive any other car, even if I end up with a Smart when I am 95.

The rust issue could have been avoided, and it should not have gone on for so long. I have spent much of my working life in houses of people who do not earn that much, people who have saved for a couple of years to get a car, I have seen what it is like for these people when their dream car turns into a pile of rust. It is more expensive to put right than any mechanical repair, a liter of paint cost more than a pair of brake disc.

People down here where I live tend to buy a car and keep it for many years, as when you are only earning £5.75 per hour, thus the chances of them ever buying a new car are nil for most.

The other daft thing is that many have had the same rust work, re done several times. If the job had been done correctly with etch primers, as used by independent body shops they would last a lot longer, but MB dismiss anything not approved by them.

As I have said many times a better design of the protection liners would have been a cheaper and better once done never again fix. but if they did this it would show that they were wrong in the first place

 

[hawk20]

That is not fair Hawk, I love MB and would not drive any other car, even if I end up with a Smart when I am 95.

.

You misunderstand. First see smile at end of my posting (tongue in cheek). Second, I made no hint of a suggestion that you were other than a true MB fan. Third, if you read thread earlier some were criticising any who had something nice to say about MB or dealers. That is what I was referring to and jokingly warning you against saying anything too nice about MB or dealers. OK?

 

[television]

You misunderstand. First see smile at end of my posting (tongue in cheek). Second, I made no hint of a suggestion that you were other than a true MB fan. Third, if you read thread earlier some were criticising any who had something nice to say about MB or dealers. That is what I was referring to and jokingly warning you against saying anything too nice about MB or dealers. OK?

Thanks,, I did not see the smiley

I am on very good terms with my dealer and know them very well, there are some flaws in the service side of things, but this is an international thing and nothing that I can do about that. Having been in the service side of things for 57 years I would love to have had a chance of addressing many issues and complaints with much better ways of resolving them with great customer satisfaction.

I have learnt so much from the forums as to what upsets people the most when it comes to service, but as they say in Sweden "nothing to do about it"

 

[philharve]

Liners or wheelarch protectors

It would help, but not very easy to do. The water from the rear wheels is forcing the water all around the rear wheel arch, the same water can only drain away or dry when it can, depending on how much mud is in the arch.

There is nothing made to improve this situation, and any home made remedy would have to be a perfect fit, or the situation would become worse. A thin rubber or plastic trim could be put around the edge on the lip and sealed with Waxoil, this would prevent rust from creeping around to the the outer paint on the sides of the car. I will take a look around to see if a suitable trim is made for something.

What I do from time to time is to cover the wheel with a water proof sheet and clean away the mud build up on the insides, it is a dirty job, but well worth doing.

Hi Malcolm

I had a good look at Brian's(?) immaculate 'pink' 190 at the Jamaica Inn GTG and I noticed his wheel arches appeared to be colour-coded 'add-ons'. Pop-riveted? Is this standard on the 190? If so, I don't understand why I haven't noticed it before.

However, I can see the sense of making rust prone panels and other body parts out of a non-ferrous material; the Ford Ka and its wheel arch material springs to mind. I wonder why MB don't adopt the same design philosophy?

Did the chromed wheel arches on older MBs resist corrosion better than painted arches? Or was it just for show?

REGARDS

Phil

 

[television]

Hi Malcolm

I had a good look at Brian's(?) immaculate 'pink' 190 at the Jamaica Inn GTG and I noticed his wheel arches appeared to be colour-coded 'add-ons'. Pop-riveted? Is this standard on the 190? If so, I don't understand why I haven't noticed it before.

However, I can see the sense of making rust prone panels and other body parts out of a non-ferrous material; the Ford Ka and its wheel arch material springs to mind. I wonder why MB don't adopt the same design philosophy?

Did the chromed wheel arches on older MBs resist corrosion better than painted arches? Or was it just for show?

REGARDS

Phil

The chrome wheel arch thing started in the late 50,s early 60,s many bought a new SL Pagoda and had them fitted from new, this carried on to the 70,s and then they disappeared for a while and came back as a cure for rust on the 124 cars, also for decor reasons. The 201 had the plastic covers, and they were the only model to have ever had them

 

[philharve]

Wheel arch covers or extensions?

The chrome wheel arch thing started in the late 50,s early 60,s many bought a new SL Pagoda and had them fitted from new, this carried on to the 70,s and then they disappeared for a while and came back as a cure for rust on the 124 cars, also for decor reasons. The 201 had the plastic covers, and they were the only model to have ever had them

Hi Malcolm

Thanks. Looking at the 'pink' 190 (201) I formed the impression that if they were merely covers then they are an excellent water trap and would probably accelerate corrosion of the metal beneath. However, if they were non-ferrous and attached to the wing like a wheel arch extension they would never corrode. It seems like a good idea. I wonder why MB never adopted the design for subsequent models?

REGARDS

Phil

 

[television]

Hi Malcolm

Thanks. Looking at the 'pink' 190 (201) I formed the impression that if they were merely covers then they are an excellent water trap and would probably accelerate corrosion of the metal beneath. However, if they were non-ferrous and attached to the wing like a wheel arch extension they would never corrode. It seems like a good idea. I wonder why MB never adopted the design for subsequent models?

REGARDS



Phil

There would have been a good market for covers, like on the 201 on the arches. If any rust was present, it would have hidden it up so that the car was not an eye sore.

 

[psmart]

Thanks Hawk.
Not sure about this one. The differentiation is the 30 year anti performation warranty and the 8 year paintwork warranty. Most owners and saldy far too many dealers, seem to combine the two. but, and I stand to be corrected, they are 2 distinct and separate warranties.

MBUK Customer Services dont understand either.

A 6 year old ML requiring a new door, wheel arch, pillar and bonnet respray touches on perforation, from the inside out. The rear door handle, as mentioned by TV suffered the same fate. The chassis was rotting quite nicely!!! The car was regularly washed with full underbody wash and generally not with UK recycled wash centres (salt traps).

Trouble is, MBUK decided that FMBSH was needed and the acrid letter they wrote speaks wonders for their lovely company. Meanwhile, Daimler AG, the real Mercedes Benz, thought differently. As I missed FMBSH by 1 year, then you have to assume they used the Paint Warranty (I find no reference to this in my car documents), but clearly if I had FMBSH would they have honoured the job under the 30yr warranty?

Like all of these things, teh warranty is 90% marketing and 10% engineering.

Agreed, but its mis-representation. Just like an IFA who tells you that putting money into Stocks and Shares is a sure winner whilst creaming off commission, a Mercedes authorised Sales representative, backed up by Mercedes authorised documentation telling you that you have a 30 year rust (or perforation, but they tell you rust) warranty is mis-representation. They made a sale by falsely representing what they were selling. They did for me, twice. They also did not make clear Terms and Conditions, for example the gotcha: 'From the 5th year you have to be serviced at a dealer', which in their interpretation is that the car had to be dealer serviced in the 4th year! This just adds to the mis-representation of the product they were selling.

Mercedes employees (wether sales, accounting) run down an excellent corporation, people on this forum just bring their decisions and cockups (and net effects) to the light of others. As mentioned by TV, a lot of people struggle to buy and own these cars and they do so on the perception of Mercedes history. We all know that history went backwards for many years and its only fair to tell it like it is and not rose tint the truth. It would be a great shame for a newbie to buy a Merc and not know the 1998-2004/5 pitfalls, including the later pitfalls such as the 7G box!

 

[philharve]

Mis-representation?

It would be a great shame for a newbie to buy a Merc and not know the 1998-2004/5 pitfalls, including the later pitfalls such as the 7G box!

Hi psmart

I, and probably a great many newbies, did just that. I bought my first Mercedes THEN joined this club. The 'truth' subsequently dawned upon me as I read the numerous threads concerning rust and I waited with baited breath for the first signs of corrosion to appear. I didn't have to wait long. It was when I put in a claim for corrosion that I realised the whole warranty issue is far from being clear cut.

I have been wondering ever since whether 'mis-repesentation' is the correct term to describe MBs corrosion policy. Is not telling the whole truth in fact a lie? I suppose the answer is that it's all a matter of interpretation, like the corrosion policy.

With the benefit of hindsight I would say my W202 suffered many of the 'typical' corrosion issues reported in this forum and because they were detected and repaired promptly they never became serious. Very annoying and inconvenient, certainly! But I have read and seen for myself examples of corrosion that make the MB corrosion policy look absurd. I cannot see how MB can interpret their policy to their advantage so they can escape liability. My first experience with a dealership was that they will have a dammed good try.

REGARDS

Phil

 

[scot360]

Sorry Nick but I strongly disagree.

I also own a Volkswagen Golf which is the same age, similar miles, kept in the same place and treated in exactly the same fashion as the Vito with ZERO rust, in fact the bodywork is excellent

My wife has a Peugeot which is older (2001) and has also been treated/kept in the same manner and it too shows no rust, so in theory, a crappy French hatchback is better built than a supposedly premium brand German workhorse?

No other brand (car or van) that I am aware of has such rust issues that as you rightly state "has been done to death on this forum", so how come they have to use the same salty UK roads as Mercedes and dont rust?

Some more pictures:

i agree totally with all of the above MB has dropped the biggest bomb ever with this rust issue on pre 2003 cars and vans, i am a victim myself, i need 4 new wings and a new tailgate if i want to stop the rust i have on my year 2000 230 SLK

 

[rf065]

In 2003 I bought a new X Trail and within as few months a large stone chip appeared on the leading edge of the bonnet through to the metal. I kept that car for 5 years, and when sold, the stone chip still showed no signs of rust.

I also have a 2002 Renault Kangoo van with a large chip on the passenger door that is also through to the metal. It was hit & dented by a stone 4 years ago and is only now starting to turn brown with surface rust.

In both cases the bodywork is I assume galvanised & the stone chip damage was never repaired. So, if Nissan & Renault can build cars & vans that are resistant to rust even when paint is removed, then it should be taken for granted that a Mercedes should perform better in the resistance to rust scenario. How could they have got it so wrong?

Russ

 

[scot360]

I think this issue of the rust with Benz is played to death on this forum. The issue seems to be that the rust problem is confined to Europe and mainly the UK.
In my view the problem is what the road authority sprays or spreads on the roads in winter rather than how Mercedes builds its cars and that the UK is a narrow island surrounded by lots of salty air.
I think it is easy to target the manufacturer. I haven't seen anybody here taking the issue up with the responsible road authority in the UK.
It is notable that the Mercs dont have a rust problem at all in AUS

you are talking total crap, a £6000 Kia or equivalent has better rust prevention than my £29500 when new SLK.

the same age and the same mileage.

you do not understand the serious problem we have here with MB`s and rust. MB are at fault and they need to realise this.

 

[psmart]

My ML270 spent most of its life in Stuttgart and the Alps, so the 'UK is salty' holds no water!

The good thing about this forum is that you have people from all walks and all locations, so the finger pointers have no where but themselves at which to point, the cars we own and drive are global, so you cant say a certain segment are at fault.

The trouble with wearing tinted rose spectacles and praising Mercedes blindly is that you do the Shareholders and the Owners no good. One of the common complaints of my German colleagues (of which the same is true globally) is that the Vorstand (Board) are only looking after themselves (ie = UK politicians) and their short term gains and golden pension/bonus. From my point of view, you can only help the Mercedes brand by bringing the decisions made by this Vorstand and earlier ones to light, putting pressure on them to better the Marque or lose their nice handouts.

 

[energysolutions]

Not sure where you live but in some countries vitos have a 12 year warrantee against rust.

I live in Northern Ireland

I took the vehicle back to MB and they squirmed their way out of a repair - The guy I dealt with was shocked at the state of it and did his best for a repair but it was rejected

At this point I voted with my feet - I sold this rustbucket and will NEVER have another - there is now a shiny new VW T5 174PS Transporter in its place

The strange thing is that after I shifted I really noticed all its strenghts and in many ways it suited my needs better than my current vehicle, but any time I start to think like that I simply remember the rust................

A couple of weeks after I traded I was working in a business park and noticed a nice black Vito around, I bumped into the driver who it turns out is a MB sales rep touting for business (things must be slow to resort to cold calling)

He explained who he was and gave me his card mentioning that if I was considering changing van I should look at a Mercedes to which my reply was "So have they cured the rust yet?"

He was quite shocked and I then explained how I had just traded a rusty Merc which his company refused to repair for a new VW and how I would never have another for this reason

We talked some more and it turns out he was a decent bloke, he explained that I was pretty typical (if a little more to the point) of the response he gets when approaching customers (particulary if they have expierenced rust first hand) and that Mercedes bodywork is often a stumbling block on potential sales

 

[energysolutions]

I have had my car looked at by MB just recently under their paint warranty, they scanned the paint depth, took pictures and contacted me within a few days - their reply was a negative due to the short length of time I have owned the car.., 6 months!
I've been given a number to ring if I wish to appeal which once I'm suitably calmer, I will give them a call! so they accepted my service records and ignored the 2 areas of reworked panels on the car ! but rejected my claim due to age of ownership but the rust must have there before I bought it!

I'm planning to make another claim later in the year (12 months) maybe they will reject it due to the service record not being all Merc? or (18 months) the 2 reworked areas.., mean while the paint is bubbling and getting worse.

Considering parking my CLK outside the local merc dealership so all the prospective Merc owners can see what happens to their car in 9 years! think it might work??

Cant see it doing any harm - what have you got to lose? As I see it a large company with a reputation for quality is selling sub standard goods which are not "fit for purpose" and refusing to correct their faults - hardly good enough

I considered something similar, getting the vehicle sign written with something like "Buy a Mercedes and get the rust for free" and parking it at the MB dealership

 

[energysolutions]

I can't argue with the points raised but I do think it gives the wrong impression.
It is true that some dealerships really should have had their franchises taken away due to appalling customer service but equally there are some excellent dealers out there that quietly persue rejected claims on your behalf. My local dealer had gone in to bat on my behalf on a couple of occasions now. They've normally won through in the end.

My other concern is this constant 'Mercedes rust' clamour.
Lets get something straight - NO THEY DON'T
Only Mercs built between 1998 and 2004 rust and then to a varying degree. That's a 6 year period and it will always be painful until they work their way through to the scrapyard. 2002 cars will still be fixed by MB too.
I sympathise with those who bought an older car on the basis of 1990's paintwork, I may have done the same not that long ago, but as with any car, buyer beware and do your homework. The rust issue was very well known by 2001 and the info is out there if you look for it.
If you took any 9 year old item back to the manufacturer, do you really think they'd be any more accomodating? I had a very expensive 4 year old dishwasher fail with a common fault recently - were the manufacturers interested? no.

I must disagree, in my expierence Mercedes definately DO rust - I can supply pictures if required to support this statement

I had a 2002 Mercedes and MB refused to repair - please explain?

You speak as though it was the consumers fault for not researching if Mercedes rusted prior to purchase - why should they? They believed they were buying into a "premium" brand, as I see it Mercedes should have done more to combat rust - other less distinguished brands have successfully managed this, why not MB?

How much is a typical expensive dishwasher when compared to a typical expensive Mercedes - its all relative. I bet the dishwasher didnt rust.........

 

[energysolutions]

They don't require fullMBSH. Read the threads and you will see that.
They do require you to meet the T's and C's on the 30 year rust warranty.
Those who don't meet the conditions (I've seen some horrors where owners leave stone chips untreated for years, and scratches and dents and then wonder why it rusts), these people often grumble like hell.

Those who do meet the conditions and get the problem treated free are usually delighted, as you'd expect.

Those who like to consistently run MB down will try to use the refusal cases to beat MB with. But they might bear in mind that no other manufacturer offers this guarantee, and MB have undoubtedly spend a fortune on remedial work caused by this issue.
BTW there are numerous 210's with no rust problems. Plenty near me. It is not a problem that afflicted all. There is some evidence that particular batches of primers and so on were the problem when they switched over to water-based paints for environmental reasons. These paints are not waterproof -only the clear lacquer keeps the water out until full galvanising began in late 2002. About the same time as BMW also moved to galvanising.

I see a lot more old Mercs than BMW's round here at least.

Prevention is better than cure

Thats assuming you are one of the lucky ones which Mercedes agree to cure........

 

[energysolutions]

Rather misleading. A's and B's are fully galvanised. In Canada, the early models had problems where the door panels are turned over at the edges. All are being fixed free. Later models have no problems. My brother has an early A class. And good friends of mine have an early B class. Neither has any rust. I have not (yet) seen any reports of this problem on UK cars.

Could be the prolonged salting in Canada helps to trigger the problem?

How do other less well respected brands combat this successfully?

 

[hawk20]

How do other less well respected brands combat this successfully?

They don't all. And MB have cured the problem now and are putting right the cars with the problem free. There are no firms that never make a mistake. The important thing is to put problems right when they occur