119 engine in W126 Merc?! Help!

[Tony E]

I'm thinking of buying a 1990 560SEC and have done my research - to discover that there might be a problem with the VIN/body tag! I would be really grateful if a more experienced merc fan could tell me if I have spotted a problem or I am being a numbskull. Here goes...

The photo (if it works!) shows the VIN plate and body tag for the car. The VIN plate on the left checks out with the MB VIN report as correct for car ? year, model, paint, options and engine 117 variant 968.

However, the body tag fixed to the right carries some information that confuses me. Almost all the info matches the VIN report and the car - it has the correct part of the VIN (12604522) for chassis, fuel, model, rh drive, auto, and the correct colour codes for paint and interior (261 and 122M) for black leather and pearl grey metallic. Also, options match car and MB VIN report (although some options not stamped here ? like electric blind, orthopaedic seats, fire extinguisher, undershields and paintwork preservation). BUT, engine number (arrow 2) should be 117968 for a 1990 SEC not 119231 (an engine number variant doesn?t actually exist!) ? or have I got this wrong?

Also, arrow 1 shows the production and consecutive build numbers. The first 5 apparently means it was built in the Sindelfingen plant in 1990 (correct), but the following six numbers (562577) giving the consecutive build don?t match the last six numbers on the VIN (588420)? should they?

In short, does 119231 on the body tag mean the car has a wierd engine, and does it matter if the 6 digit build numbers are different on the VIN and body tag?

If you are still with me, it?s not important, but do you have any idea what the other mysterious numbers circled mean?

Can you help?

 

[pascal]

Tony, It seems to me that this car has been altered somewhat.....a combination of two sec's, both the same colour, one a 560, the other a 500(119).
The two plates do not match up, as far as I can see, and the one on the right is for a 500sec.
The one on the left indeed matches the trim of the car you describe.

Check the engine no. stamped on the block and chassis no stamped on the chassis.

Personally I would be very warey

Pascal

 

[talbir]

Sorry, but the information given by Pascal is absolutely incorrect.

Both those VIN plate and body tag are absolutely FINE. The number you have marked with arrow 2 does NOT represent the first 6 digits of the engine number. It refers to a different option - that data card on the right helps determine the options, paintwork, transmission number, lamps, lock number, and model designation. But that number is not the first 6 digits of the engine number.

Moreover, no W126 was ever fitted with the M119 engine - only the V8 models in the R129, W140 and W124 500E received the M119. 560 and 500SEC's BOTH received the M117 whilst the 420SEC carried the M116.

The main thing is that BOTH plates carry the identification of a 560SEC, which is that the first 6 numerical digits are ALWAYS 126.045. On a 500SEC, they are ALWAYS 126.044.

Here is a summary of the W126 SEC model chassis number and engine number first 6 digits which are used as identification of whether car is a 380SEC, 420SEC, 500SEC or 560SEC :

- 126.043 1982-1983 380SEC M116.963 engine
- 126.044 1984-1985 500SEC M117.963 engine
- 126.045 1986-1991 560SEC M117.968 engine

Also, the last 6 digits of the VIN are just the chassis end number - they bear no relation to the 7 digit number you have highlighted by arrow 1.

The letter in the chassis number signifies the plant of production.
A-E = Sindelfingen
F-H = Bremen
J = Rastatt.

So yours is 1260452A....so it's a Sindelfingen production.

Those data card and VIN plate look absolutely fine to me - you have nothing to worry about, especially since all details have checked out with MB. But you are right to question - alot of people out there passing of 500SEC's as 560SEC's. But the car you have highlighted above is DEFINITELY a 560SEC from those plates. Double check the engine number against the V5, MOT certificate and engine block itself.

The chassis number will also be stamped on the firewall in front of the brake booster.

All post 89 560SEC's came standard with the fire extinguisher and electric rear sunshade. All the options on the car can be found on the vehicle data card in the back of the service book.

Another distinguishing feature of the 560SEC is the speedometer - the line markings will go to 170mph. The 170 is not marked but the markings go upto 170mph. On the 500SEC and 420SEC, the markings stop at 160mph.

Let me know if you require any further info before your purchase.

cheers
talbir

 

[pascal]

Sorry Tabir and Tony,

I missread Tony's thread.
I thought that he was sure he had a 119 engine (as on heading)

Pascal

 

[talbir]

No worries.

I do know of a 560SEC in the States that has an M119 engine....the owner has done a transplant and it is absolutely glorious. Proper as well - he even transferred the gearbox as well.

Big job - all the electronics and wiring.....but a great job.

Worthwhile for the US 560's which only had 240bhp. The Euro 560 SEC's had 300bhp - an M119 engine produces 326bhp, only 26bhp more than the M117.968. So it would not be a worthwhile transplant on a Euro 560SEC.


talbir

 

[pascal]

1.5 porsches & 1.6 MB's

So that would be 1.6 MBs if you got it Tabir?:lol:

 

[Tony E]

Thanks Talbir, for putting my mind at rest about this. I will be sure to check the engine and chassis numbers out against all paperwork and block.

Still got the inspection to go; thinking of taking it to George Fraser if the price is right. Hell of a business buying a big old car like this -hope it's gong to be worth it!

Tony

 

[pascal]

Tony,

Good luck with the car if you buy it. The 560 (117) engine should be just fine.
That figuire of 328hp is without CAT (308 with) for the 129 multivalve. I guess that the guy in the US must have a huge wallet so spend such amount of money.
The link below describes such a conversion (probably the same as the one Tabir describes):
http://www.mbcoupes.com/memberscars/T/satishtummala/page1.htm

 

[talbir]

All MB cars post 1991 MB's had CATs - and the MB figure of 326bhp for the M119 is WITH CATS, since the M119 engine was released in 1992.

ALL M119 32-valve engines had an output of 326bhp until Aug 1993, when they were de-tuned slightly to meet emmissions regulations and official output became 320bhp.


talbir

 

[talbir]

Output figure of the M119 without CATS is 333bhp.

BTW, you don't need a lot of money to transplant an M119 and tranny into a W126. Just go to a breakers yard and you can get the engine + tranny + modules for approx 2 grand.

The guy in the States did all the fitting himself - only slight modification to the engine bay firewalls required and the rest is wiring.

Not an easy job to do but certainly not an expensive one. The guy took his stock US 560SEC 240bhp) to 326 bhp. That's an increase of 86 bhp, plus a much better and more modern engine and transmisson and fuel management system (the M119 is still regarded as MB's best ever v8 engine) - all for less than 2 grand.

That's alot of bang per buck....

talbir

 

[guydewdney]

<full on pedant mode>

the M119 also referred to the 4.2 litre = 275 bhp (post '96)

<ignore me>

anyway - since this thread has turned to engine size vs power vs M number - what was the most powerful STOCK engine made? the M100 6.9 seems to be the torque-i-est (is that a word?)...

or should i start a vote on what engine i should be dropping into the W114 drag racer (as in my sig)?