4Matic W124 problems

[leylandp38]

I have a 1988 4Matic 300TE I bought on Ebay recently :roll: and its not exactly as the guy described it. Unfortunately I was fooled as he had a good rating and described himself as a Mercedes engineer. He also said the car was exceptional and as I wanted to export it to Australia, I needed a pre-1989 car. See http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=4575712343&ssPageName=STRK for details of the car and what he claimed.

Anyway, the worst fault is that the /!\ light in the centre of the dash will periodically flash and the front wheels go wild. At speed this can be dangerous as it pulls the car off course. I suspect a steering angle sensor - the 4Matic seems to work OK most of the time but this fault is a killer (literally!)

Any ideas please? I am trying to get compensation but the guy is currently claiming that the 4WD system is only for off road use and it should be driven in test mode (as if Mercedes would design a car that you have to open the bonnet to engage 4WD!)

 

[flagstaff]

if you paid with a credit card, then you might have some comeback thru your card co. ... you could cite a fraudulent claim by the seller, in which case the card co will pursue him. if you didn't pay with a card then you can still pursue him, but thru the normal ebay channels. in the meantime, you should disable the 4wd completely!

as an aside, it's been my experience recently (past year or so) that ebay is gradually filling up with crooks and pikeys. nothing is what it seems, anymore. my most recent ebay purchase was an E280, described as having "absolutely no mechanical faults whatsoever" - turned out the head gasket had gone. it was a relatively cheap repair in the end, as i did it myself, but anyone who didn't fancy it as a DIY job would have been looking at a bill the wrong side of a grand.

in my case, the guy claimed that he didn't even know what a head gasket was ... and had never even opened the bonnet ... yeah, right. and, like you, the guy had a respectable rating and history.

good luck with it!!

 

[Richard Moakes]

Scum have really latched onto ebay.

So many things are now being mis-described, it's getting out of control.

...and what with all the companies jumping on the bandwagon, its often cheaper to buy stuff online from real shops.

Sad really, good idea trashed by pikeys.

Richard

 

[Bolide]

Not as described

If the car is not as described then take the seller to court

BTW the chances of any W124 4-Matic working 100% at that age are, I would estimate, about zero

I'd get your money back from the seller and buy an E280


Nick Froome
www.w124.co.uk

 

[paulcallender]

It looks like you've been caught out. The only thing you can do him for, in his description, is

"everything works as it should."

which is simply too vague to pin him down on.

If you did a search on this forum BEFORE you purchased the car, you would have seen that the 4-Matic was the only fly in the W124's ointment. The transfer box typically has a life of 130,000 miles or less, and then it starts to play up as yours does. And it runs through a specific procedure to test out the transfer box, to ensure faults don't exist with it, if you really did want a 4-Matic.

I think its an expensive way of finding out this forum has a search feature!!!!

 

[Apial]

Are you sure that this chap isn't a dealer? Look at his feeback.He has sold 4 cars since July.

 

[leylandp38]

Thanks all for the advice, I will see about taking him to court if he doesn't play ball. I got caught out by being complacent I guess, I have bought 2 others on Ebay that were great, from really honest traders. I simply thought (naively) that if he was a Mercedes engineer as he claimed to be, that things like the transfer case would have been overhauled. After all that is what I would do if I had the knowhow and access to the right tools.

That said, I wonder if the fault is electronic. I have found the following symptoms:
1) If I disconnect the 4Matic ECU but engage the hydraulics via the test lever, there are no issues. This suggests to me that the transfer case is not behaving oddly without some sort of erroneous signal from the ECU.
2) When the system is engaged and active it works fine for a while (up to 40 mins) but then starts to kick in with sudden massive drag at the front end. The drag can be alleviated for a short time by simply tapping on the brakes, my guess is the ABS signal is interrupting or resetting something else.
3) The fault can be induced by hard steering, eg tight or sudden turns. Could this be something to do with steering angle sensor and if so where does that live (Haynes, typically, doesn't mention 4Matics).

Any answers gratefully received. :-?

 

[paulcallender]

Thanks all for the advice, I will see about taking him to court if he doesn't play ball. I got caught out by being complacent I guess, I have bought 2 others on Ebay that were great, from really honest traders. I simply thought (naively) that if he was a Mercedes engineer as he claimed to be, that things like the transfer case would have been overhauled. After all that is what I would do if I had the knowhow and access to the right tools.

That said, I wonder if the fault is electronic. I have found the following symptoms:
1) If I disconnect the 4Matic ECU but engage the hydraulics via the test lever, there are no issues. This suggests to me that the transfer case is not behaving oddly without some sort of erroneous signal from the ECU.
2) When the system is engaged and active it works fine for a while (up to 40 mins) but then starts to kick in with sudden massive drag at the front end. The drag can be alleviated for a short time by simply tapping on the brakes, my guess is the ABS signal is interrupting or resetting something else.
3) The fault can be induced by hard steering, eg tight or sudden turns. Could this be something to do with steering angle sensor and if so where does that live (Haynes, typically, doesn't mention 4Matics).

Any answers gratefully received. :-?

If you feel like taking him to court, I think you need to seek legal advice sooner rather than later. You're not going to like the sound of this, but if you do work on the car it will compromise your case. You need to not use the car. To make this decision, you really need to have the opinion of a barrister who will be able to give an estimate of the likely outcome, were it to go to court. Sometimes they say that you have a strong case but the probability of a successful outcome is low

 

[leylandp38]

Thanks, I take your point. I guess my gut feeling is it will be difficult to get very far taking him to court as costs are likely to outweight the loss. I was hoping to get some help with diagnosis so I can at least assess the scale of the problem and therefore my level of desperation to get compensation. Apart from this problem the car is quite nice.

 

[mazza190]

dont despair

Hey leylandp38
dont despair, if you need a workshop manual for w124 , have a look at
www.workshopmanual.co.uk. I wanted to do some diy om my cossie and I was able to get one from there.. and it covers a heck of a lot mechanical/electric, I know that they cover your motor so have a look

cheers
Mazza

 

[davidsl500]

Cant help with the technical query but I have a few suggestions / questions.

First of all did you get a receipt? Did the receipt show the Ebayers name and address?

Secondly, who was the last owner of the vehicle on the log book ? i.e was it the Ebay sellers name and the address you picked it up from or was he "trading" the car. If he is "trading" in vehicles - and the suggestion is that he has sold 4 vehicles then he has a duty to ensure that the vehicle is roadworthy. He also had a duty to declare his earnings from his trading activities. I would be having a word with Trading Standards and also the Inland Revenue - and supplying copies of his previous Ebay Dealings. You could also report the matter to Customs and Excise via their anonmyous "snitch" line because he may have other dealings outside of Ebay that may take him above the V.A.T Threshold. Customs and Excise have a duty to follow up any leads given to them as does the inland revenue.

Alternatively you could suggest to him that you will be doing this if he does not compensate you for the repair costs - Then do it anyway once the vehicle is repaired....(ooh,nasty aren't I?)

Of course if it was a "private" sale and he was the last registrant on the log book then trading standards would be no good.

Depending how much of a rogue this guy is, you could employ a solicitor to write him a letter explaining that the goods are not as described and that you will be seeking compensation through the small claims court for repairs - get a quote from an independant or Mercedes Dealer so that you have a value. The small claims court is a very simple procedure and not that expensive.

 

[leylandp38]

Cant help with the technical query but I have a few suggestions / questions.

First of all did you get a receipt? Did the receipt show the Ebayers name and address?

Secondly, who was the last owner of the vehicle on the log book ? i.e was it the Ebay sellers name and the address you picked it up from or was he "trading" the car. If he is "trading" in vehicles - and the suggestion is that he has sold 4 vehicles then he has a duty to ensure that the vehicle is roadworthy. He also had a duty to declare his earnings from his trading activities. I would be having a word with Trading Standards and also the Inland Revenue - and supplying copies of his previous Ebay Dealings. You could also report the matter to Customs and Excise via their anonmyous "snitch" line because he may have other dealings outside of Ebay that may take him above the V.A.T Threshold. Customs and Excise have a duty to follow up any leads given to them as does the inland revenue.

Alternatively you could suggest to him that you will be doing this if he does not compensate you for the repair costs - Then do it anyway once the vehicle is repaired....(ooh,nasty aren't I?)

Of course if it was a "private" sale and he was the last registrant on the log book then trading standards would be no good.

Depending how much of a rogue this guy is, you could employ a solicitor to write him a letter explaining that the goods are not as described and that you will be seeking compensation through the small claims court for repairs - get a quote from an independant or Mercedes Dealer so that you have a value. The small claims court is a very simple procedure and not that expensive.

Thanks David, that is a useful and practical suggestion. I'll follow it up and report back. I am pretty sure the logbook was in his name, and i did get a receipt. I think he's an amateur (Walter Mitty springs to mind given his 'Mercedes Engineer' claims) rather than a dealer (or maybe an amateur dealer?). But the small claims court sounds like a good idea and I'll follow that up.

 

[leylandp38]

:idea: Incidentally I found this great web page from Sweden about 4Matics... http://frejvall.com/frejvall.nsf/pages/4matic.htm?OpenDocument&Click=

 

[mjtray]

Did you buy the car unseen or did you check it out prior to bidding?

 

[leylandp38]

:Oops: I bought it unseen. I based it on the description and the photos, and the guy's good seller rating (he's in Leeds i'm in London). Not the first time i've done that but the first time its gone bad for me. I handed over the cash when I saw him so had an opportunity then I guess but it broadly fitted the description, and the faults are subtle, I didn't pick the faults immediately even though I've now had a bit of experience with these cars (I have had a 1987 300TE for 4 years now and fixed most things on it, and now I have a 1992 300TE-24).

I am still kicking myself for being naive, he spoke just enough sense to seem to reinforce his claim to be a Mercedes engineer (which I now don't believe as his claims for example about 4matic being intended for off road only are utter rubbish). And its very tidy, lots of cosmetic things work really well, like all the dash and panel bulbs, the aircon etc, so it presents as a well maintained car.

 

[paulcallender]

You have a couple of choices:

1. Use it in 2WD (put lever in test mode), and if you ever need 4WD, open the bonnet and use the lever to engage it.
2. Replace the transfer box
3. Recondition your existing transfer box.

 

[paulcallender]

...Or, you could try and prove he is a trader, in which case you'd then have more rights and could possibly progress a refund, with a small allowance (say 5-10%) for the use you've had of the car so far. Trading Standards should be able to help.

 

[leylandp38]

Yeah.... have been driving in 2WD mode and its OK like that, but i have to admit I like the AWD option and I'm increasingly intrigued by the idea that there is maybe an electronic fault. From what I have read, and from what I know about electronics, I think that its possible that the transfer box is being randomly flicked into Mode 1 (35% front/65% rear) by the 4Matic ECU. Normally this should apparently happen momentarily when the car first moves off, but if something is resetting the ECU then maybe it can happen at speed.

The reason for this theory (which I will test more extensively on the weekend) is that engaging the hydraulics (ie the Test lever) but unplugging the ECU leads to no problem whatever, if the fault was mechnical then surely it would happen with or without the 4Matic ECU. That suggests that the 4Matic ECU is at fault, either through an internal failure (eg broken connection or component breakdown), or through receiving spurious input signals (eg steering angle sensor).

:idea: BUT, I noticed today that the car has another more major electrical fault... the headlights intermittently go quite dim and the heater blower slows down noticeably. Previously I haven't seen this as its my wife's car but she has mentioned something... and I just thought it was that extra glass of wine she had before coming home

Anyway this light dimming etc suggests either some random short somewhere or a faulty alternator or regulator to me. Not sure how I'll find it if its not the alt/reg but maybe a random sudden voltage drop will upset or even reset the 4Matic ECU? This would cause the strange behaviour I suspect, if the rest of my theory is right...

To add to that, when this happened this morning it also caused an ABS fail immediately after. I think the 4Matic ECU controls ABS in 4Matic cars as it automatically fails when the ECU is unplugged, and the 4Matic uses the ABS sensors for input as well.

Sorry for thinking out loud here but I'd quite like suggestions on this. I'm still more in favour of fixing this car if I can, without spending too much, its less grief than trying to get money out of someone who probably has none.

 

[paulcallender]

I'm not an expert on this particular model, but I don't think the ABS is linked to the 4WD. It is linked to ASR (anti-skid control) if fitted. I'm not 100% on this, though. There is a website somewhere which goes into a LOT of detail about how various 4WD systems work for lots of makes/models of car. It has a good description of how the system works for a 4-Matic. By the way, this car normally uses 2WD and senses when there is a differential in the road speed. I think the light is supposed to light when 4WD is active. When you say the front wheels "go wild" what do they do exactly? Turn at a higher or slower speed than the rear? Only one front wheel gripping, which makes it pull to one side? Prevent normal steering and force you into a straight line? It could be worth a road test by a person who is familiar with the system to check it out, or a 4 wheel rolling road session.

The electrical problems suggest a poor connection or dodgy cable, between the + side of the battery and the car (or could also be the battery's earth strap). It would be worth checking and cleaning the battery terminals. Also, its well worth cleaning the fuse box terminals and replacing all the 'pill' type fuses, this is a common failing in this age of car.

The good news is, although its complex, the W124 is relatively free of the electronic management of later models, so a normal electrical multimeter should be useful for troubleshooting.

 

[leylandp38]

Yes you are right, the 2WD mode is normal and the 4WD cuts in when the ECU senses slippage, from the inputs of steering angle sensor and ABS sensors.

The symptoms I get is that the skid warning light /!\ comes on and there is noticeable strong drag from the front wheels, as if the brake was being applied hard but to the front wheels only. It is the same on smooth straight roads (eg motorway) or twisty country roads. This isn't quite the same as braking however and it tracks distinctly to the right, which I'm guessing is like a torque-steer effect from the front wheels being powered, but at a lower speed than the rear wheels. (I have 4 equal size and brand tyres so its not that). This is (I think) the 35/65% front/rear power split which probably has its uses in a sideways low speed skid condition (when it is supposed to cut in). The feeling is literally as if the rear end were trying to overtake the front.

If it cut in to Mode 2 or Mode 3 which both have equal front/rear power distribution I don't think it would cause such a problem, although as Mode 3 locks the rear diff it would be difficult on curves.

You are probably right about the ABS, maybe disconnecting the 4Matic ECU simply disconnects the ABS sensors from the main system as well? Not sure here but it could be a red herring anyway. Certainly it is 100% consistent behaviour that if I disconnect the 4Matic ECU the ABS fails immediately, and normally it works OK (well it did till today with the other issue I described).

Incidentally as we are heading into electronics I have cross posted to the ECU/Electrics etc forum.

Alistair