AMG S-Class on 5th Gear

[hawk20]

HO HUM you missed the critical word there - insert between massively and engineered the word 'under'. HELP you can blow the PS apart if you rev the engine too hard while the steering is on full lock. OOOOPS back to the drawing board with that design. I really am glad that MB dont design aeroplanes - ooops you banked too hard you pulled up too hard AND the wings fell off and YOUR DEAD!!! what a silly boy you were. The fact that you bought the AMG version did not actually mean it was a performance aeroplane it meant it was 'extra' fragile and was actually weaker than a Cesna 172 (in car parlance a Ford Escort) - i guess MB and AMG should come with a safety warning for the dash - this car will beak if you drive it too hard

This is just stupid Merc bashing. You have absolutely no idea that this was a design fault. Much more likely it was just a faulty car and as I have already pointed out you can find bad samples of virtually every car and every machine. Read the thread I did on the JD Power survey and you will see Mercedes came out way better than average, way ahead of the BMW 5 series and ahead of all Audis except one.

 

[jonathanjhann]

everyone is missing the point that if you hold the powersteering and force it against the lock stops, not just in the fully turned position you will be demanding full power assistance. I only suggested it as a reason that the car 'broke'.
Everyone here owns a merc I assume so it is amazing that you are all so ready to mercbash, thereby spreading the image damaging notion that mercs are crap, which in turn de-values all of your investments.
If you all want a completely reliable car, you will never find it in this day and age. If a simple single computer crashes it is acceptable, you just say 'oh well and reboot it. If you consider how many computers are on board a modern car, it is not surprising that things happen.
I write this at my peril, fighting mercs corner against a baying mob!
Sorry

 

[OmniCognateNeutronRangler]

everyone is missing the point that if you hold the powersteering and force it against the lock stops, not just in the fully turned position you will be demanding full power assistance. I only suggested it as a reason that the car 'broke'.
Everyone here owns a merc I assume so it is amazing that you are all so ready to mercbash, thereby spreading the image damaging notion that mercs are crap, which in turn de-values all of your investments.
If you all want a completely reliable car, you will never find it in this day and age. If a simple single computer crashes it is acceptable, you just say 'oh well and reboot it. If you consider how many computers are on board a modern car, it is not surprising that things happen.
I write this at my peril, fighting mercs corner against a baying mob!
Sorry

no need to say sorry, your points are very valid, as are the others. But you do seem to be confirming my point, and it's not aimed specifically at Mercs but a lot of modern cars. Are they getting to technical? MB tend to be a little open on this one because they tend to be on the cutting edge with a lot of car technology, in a lot of terms they are way ahead of everyone else...but are they going to far?

Your comment about a single computer crashing is very pertinient. Modern cars have dozens of the damn things and we all know they crash (I work in IT so I know it all to well) so is it a good idea to fill your car with them. A computer crashing in your car may not be very serious and easily rectified if you plug it into some horribly expensive diagnostic system but that is little comfort when you are sitting on some dark roadside in the rain waiting for the tow truck.

I'm also not concerned about "de-valuing my investment". It's a car. This time next year I'll be lucky to get 2/3 of what I paid for it and the year after it'll be 1/2 etc. They always de-value. I don't think a few truthful comments on this forum will make a lot of difference there.

You musn't fall into the same trap as others and think that this is a fan site and that we should only ever come on here to say nice things about our cars. We come here to discuss the good as well as the bad. My well engineered Merc has been in the garage more times than I care to think about and has a whole bunch of other build issues with I have made well known. However, as I have said many times I also belive it looks fantastic and is great to drive.

Like I said, we are all entitled to our opinions and we are also all entitiled to disagree with the opinons of others. Your responses are considered and polite and I respect that, even if I don't agree 100% with what you are saying.

 

[television]

I cant see why this thread is going wrong. The clip showed the S class being put through race track, the same as every other car on Top Gear. None of us drive like that on the road. The car featured did very well and one can see why it has been voted best in its class.

Back to this power steering thing, Max effect is at low or parking speeds, that is why it is there, any car leaving a kerbside parking place sits there on full lock waiting for a gap to pull out, and this could be several mins and no harm is done,even though power steering is at max effect.

There are at least 10 different variable power steering systems out there,that reduce the effect the faster the car goes, these have nothing to do with the speed of the engine, it is the speed of the car, otherwise it would feel strange to have light steering in say 2nd gear and heavy steering in top.

All of these systems are made to operate at a certain presure within that system, and the relief and bypass valves take care of that, faults and problems are more old wives tales and we have less trouble with power steering than any other part of the car.

As I said before, if some of you think that holding the lock on full is bad for the car how on earth do you leave a road side parking space on a busy road, wait for the shops to close, I dont think so.

Malcolm

 

[Blobcat]

everyone is missing the point that if you hold the powersteering and force it against the lock stops, not just in the fully turned position you will be demanding full power assistance. I only suggested it as a reason that the car 'broke'.
Everyone here owns a merc I assume so it is amazing that you are all so ready to mercbash, thereby spreading the image damaging notion that mercs are crap, which in turn de-values all of your investments.
If you all want a completely reliable car, you will never find it in this day and age. If a simple single computer crashes it is acceptable, you just say 'oh well and reboot it. If you consider how many computers are on board a modern car, it is not surprising that things happen.
I write this at my peril, fighting mercs corner against a baying mob!
Sorry

As per Omni above you need to look at what this forum is and who posts here. Most members join because they are having a problem and want some help and advice. Therefore there is a good chance that these people are not quite as enamoured with their Mercedes as they thought they would be. This is partly Mercedes fault as the general perception among the great unwashed is that Mercedes are of the highest quality. It is only when you either buy into the brand or do some research that the veils begin to fall away. Still I love my MB

 

[Blobcat]

I cant see why this thread is going wrong. The clip showed the S class being put through race track, the same as every other car on Top Gear. None of us drive like that on the road. The car featured did very well and one can see why it has been voted best in its class.

Back to this power steering thing, Max effect is at low or parking speeds, that is why it is there, any car leaving a kerbside parking place sits there on full lock waiting for a gap to pull out, and this could be several mins and no harm is done,even though power steering is at max effect.

There are at least 10 different variable power steering systems out there,that reduce the effect the faster the car goes, these have nothing to do with the speed of the engine, it is the speed of the car, otherwise it would feel strange to have light steering in say 2nd gear and heavy steering in top.

All of these systems are made to operate at a certain presure within that system, and the relief and bypass valves take care of that, faults and problems are more old wives tales and we have less trouble with power steering than any other part of the car.

As I said before, if some of you think that holding the lock on full is bad for the car how on earth do you leave a road side parking space on a busy road, wait for the shops to close, I dont think so.

Malcolm

Just to add to this, one reason that I think we see so many lower ball joints/anti-roll bar/steering issues is that because of power steering drivers tend to turn the wheel whilst the car is stationary. With the width of the tyres the stresses placed on the steering/suspension is enormous. I almost never turn the wheel until the car is moving, I had a SIII Land Rover for a long while and it was almost impossible to turn the wheel at standstill.

 

[OmniCognateNeutronRangler]

I cant see why this thread is going wrong.

Malcolm

it's not going wrong Malcolm, just going a bit wobbly as most of these threads do (well, the ones I get involved in anyway.... odd that ) it's a forum, it's all about discussion. Great fun.

 

[television]

Just to add to this, one reason that I think we see so many lower ball joints/anti-roll bar/steering issues is that because of power steering drivers tend to turn the wheel whilst the car is stationary. With the width of the tyres the stresses placed on the steering/suspension is enormous. I almost never turn the wheel until the car is moving, I had a SIII Land Rover for a long while and it was almost impossible to turn the wheel at standstill.

Handbooks of yesteryear did stress this point, the loading amazes me.

I had a Maserati ghibli with no power steering, and that was impossible to turn the wheel with the car not moving.

Also just adding the MK 10 Jags were the worst in their day at blowing the power steering, they were the first to use a power steering box,as against the RAM that was used by others. The top would split and in the worst cases the nut would come right off leaving you with no steering at all.
I earnt a lot of money on these by having my own top plates made in 1/4 plate steel sold over 200 of them.

Malcolm

 

[OmniCognateNeutronRangler]

I had a power steering belt break on the Audi. It was pretty much impossible to turn the steering wheel without it.

 

[television]

it's not going wrong Malcolm, just going a bit wobbly as most of these threads do (well, the ones I get involved in anyway.... odd that ) it's a forum, it's all about discussion. Great fun.

I know that you have had some problems Omni, but I hate Merc bashing, there are far worse out there. I have every option as there is more to go wrong and I like that. it gives me something to think about.


Malcolm

 

[OmniCognateNeutronRangler]

big difference though Malcolm is that when it goes a little pear shaped you have no trouble with grabbing a spanner and getting your hands dirty. If I tried that you'd probably hear the explosion from there, ever if I were just changing the spark plugs. I am very good at some things, and less so at others - fixing cars being one of the "others". My brother, being an engineer, has never been to a garage. Even when he had the Esprit he did all his own servicing (and still sold the car for more than he bought it for). Lotus wanted about £1000 to change the cam belt because it's a mid engined car and you pretty much need to remove the body to get to the belt. He did it himself for £30.

I also only have the one car so when it goes wrong it's a bit of a mare. I think I may get myself a motorbike as a backup.

like I have said many times, I like my car; it drives well and looks fantastic. I am just a bit (well quite a lot) disapointed with its reliability and build quality. If I had an SL however,..........

 

[television]

big difference though Malcolm is that when it goes a little pear shaped you have no trouble with grabbing a spanner and getting your hands dirty. If I tried that you'd probably hear the explosion from there, ever if I were just changing the spark plugs. I am very good at some things, and less so at others - fixing cars being one of the "others". My brother, being an engineer, has never been to a garage. Even when he had the Esprit he did all his own servicing (and still sold the car for more than he bought it for). Lotus wanted about £1000 to change the cam belt because it's a mid engined car and you pretty much need to remove the body to get to the belt. He did it himself for £30.

I also only have the one car so when it goes wrong it's a bit of a mare. I think I may get myself a motorbike as a backup.

like I have said many times, I like my car; it drives well and looks fantastic. I am just a bit (well quite a lot) disapointed with its reliability and build quality. If I had an SL however,..........

With an SL i can assure you that a toilet roll has far more use than a spanner

Malcolm

 

[OmniCognateNeutronRangler]

lol Seriously, It's a lovely car. I'm looking forward to you letting me drive it round Brooklands in Feb

 

[hawk20]

everyone is missing the point that if you hold the powersteering and force it against the lock stops, not just in the fully turned position you will be demanding full power assistance. I only suggested it as a reason that the car 'broke'.
Everyone here owns a merc I assume so it is amazing that you are all so ready to mercbash, thereby spreading the image damaging notion that mercs are crap, which in turn de-values all of your investments.
If you all want a completely reliable car, you will never find it in this day and age. If a simple single computer crashes it is acceptable, you just say 'oh well and reboot it. If you consider how many computers are on board a modern car, it is not surprising that things happen.
I write this at my peril, fighting mercs corner against a baying mob!
Sorry

Keep fighting. It is a sad fact that those who have relatively poor experience with a less than average sample of the breed often want to turn up as regulars on owners' forums to bash the breed. Fairly easy to spot tother from which in my view. Usually the arch critics claim to be rational and to see both sides of the story. You will be told you don't -if you say anything positive about Mercedes.
We have one guy who said he told his dealer he would do his damndest to put off 100 buyers and he comes here regularly to up his score.

Never mind, you will meet some real enthusiasts here, probably less than on some other Merc forums for some reason, and plenty of others who are open minded and looking for help, information, knowledge etc. I agree with you that too many moaners can harm the image. I remember well my first few weeks here thinking how depressing most of the postings were. But of course nobody writes in to say my rear light is working well today. But they sure write in if it fails. Keep cheering us up. Merry Christmas.

 

[angus falconer]

But of course nobody writes in to say my rear light is working well today. .

All my rear lights are working fine today.

New tyres are all great.

Exhaust is growling more loudly than ever

 

[izzi613]

Hawk20

You forget that it is not just owners who have been moaning loudly about the downturn in quality and service from the most famous automotive brand. The press have been on Mercedes case for years with them doing increasingly badly in JD Power and other magazine owner surveys. I had no experience of Mercedes Benz until early November and I must say I love the car and am delighted with it. (I've become a little Mercedes crazed btw as you will see from my time spent on this forum)

However prior to purchasing my vehicle my impression of the brand was that most cars from the mid 90's onwards were not up to the standard of the 80's and early 90's cars in both build quality and reliability. That opinion was crystallised by my avid reading of automotive literature and not specific owners comments.

My point...

If owners have problems they are allowed to express their dissatisfaction, if the problems are so numerous and their experience with the dealerships are so traumatic that they are turned off the brand and have little good to say about it so be it. It is then up to Mercedes to sort both the quality issues and service issue to put consumer confidence back in the brand. Nothing and no one is immune from criticism.

 

[Flying Scot]

Originally Posted by Flying Scot View Post
HO HUM you missed the critical word there - insert between massively and engineered the word 'under'. HELP you can blow the PS apart if you rev the engine too hard while the steering is on full lock. OOOOPS back to the drawing board with that design. I really am glad that MB dont design aeroplanes - ooops you banked too hard you pulled up too hard AND the wings fell off and YOUR DEAD!!! what a silly boy you were. The fact that you bought the AMG version did not actually mean it was a performance aeroplane it meant it was 'extra' fragile and was actually weaker than a Cesna 172 (in car parlance a Ford Escort) - i guess MB and AMG should come with a safety warning for the dash - this car will beak if you drive it too hard

This is just stupid Merc bashing. You have absolutely no idea that this was a design fault. Much more likely it was just a faulty car and as I have already pointed out you can find bad samples of virtually every car and every machine. Read the thread I did on the JD Power survey and you will see Mercedes came out way better than average, way ahead of the BMW 5 series and ahead of all Audis except one.

So you know more than me here?? you were involved with the investigation of this problem after the events?? somehow i doubt that most likely you watched it on TV and saw what we all saw - so you are just giving an opinion here. Read what i wrote no matter if it is design fault or a component that fails if it was in 'the steering' the flight controls of a plane YOUR DEAD - like i said i am glad that MB build cars and not planes. There should be no way you can damage or break any component in the power steering system of a MB car even if you floor the throttle while holding on full lock that should be an engineering design requirement / goal. Some of what MB has produced has been CRAP i dont think there is any real disagreement re that - remember the A class that rolled over DUH!!! now that for sure was a design fault. I LOVE my SL500 but i am NOT a BIG BIG fan of everything MB does or has done that is my opinion and no matter what you write here you wont change it so learn to live with it and the opinions of others who dont think MB cars are as good as the should be - because rather strangely you wont manage to change our opinions only we can do that based on our experiences and our perceptions.

 

[hawk20]

that is my opinion and no matter what you write here you wont change it so learn to live with it and the opinions of others who dont think MB cars are as good as the should be - because rather strangely you wont manage to change our opinions only we can do that based on our experiences and our perceptions.

And that is why they say experience is a hard school but fools will learn in no other.

 

[hawk20]

So you know more than me here?? you were involved with the investigation of this problem after the events?? .

No I don't know what the problem was and freely admit that. In fact, that was my point. None of us know and might bear that in mind when issuing sweeping condemnations. Personally I like to see some solid evidence before bringing in a guilty verdict.

 

[jberks]

Boys boys boys - now really ....
Ok - modern cars are more complex than cars of old, plus there is far greater pressure on the engineers both from us demanding more and more clever technology and from the accountants and 'management consulatants' telling them to do it quicker for less money.
Hence they get it wrong from time to time. So, out of the thousands of 211's on the road, how many have had brake failures? perhaps 20? Ok that's 20 too many but proportionately it's a small number. Things do go wrong more often than we'd like, but they are all the same and horror stories abound, from the Toyota Avensis to the S class and beyond. I imagine even RR have issue. I get quite frustrated when I read about how great cars from years ago were in comparison. Chalk, cheese and myth I'm afraid. I am told the Pullman 600 Merc of yesteryear had air suspension issues that rendered them off the road from time to time. My Dads 1980 E class W123 used to throw cam chains at regular intervals, leaving him stuck by the roadside. Our 1984 380SE would occasionally just misfire for the sake of it. Not often, but occasionally. I dare say the 124 was very good, but then it should have been, it was basically a facelifted 123, already tried and tested after 13 years of production.

Design faults occur, they are designed out over time and later models are better as a result. To be fair, given the analogy, aircraft are no more reliable. Few jets fly with all systems functioning properly, ever. They simply have backups and secondaries to switch to.

On the 'failure'. I remember an aston throwing the fan belt during a similar excercise. They came out, fixed it and the moment they tried again, it re-occurred. I dare say, that new ones don't. Top gear broke an M5, possibly 2. The S55 is new (I didn't see it but I presume it is the new S) and there will be a few issues to iron out. If you want to be one of the first to have one, expect a few minor problems. Few cars come out of design entirely trouble free. However, I imagine that the pump will be returned, tested, diagnosed and a modification devised to avoid future breakages. These will be installed on recalls/services/failures and new ones will have it as standard. Its how these things are done. If you want a very reliable motor, get an end of run, whatever the make. Otherwise you pay your money and take your chances.