At my wits end....being ripped off?

[kingsize]

If anyone can advise I would be so thankful.

Two weeks ago, left my 2001 E220 CDi in for a Mercedes Service (99k miles and full merc service at the appropriate intervals).

£800.00 later, was advised that I would have to re-book for further work, as there was a 'slight' fuel leak, and the car was a bit sluggish, but was told that I could book it in at my convenience, i.e. not urgent.

About 200 miles later, the 'excess oil - reduce level now' came flashing up, and white smoke began pouring from the engine with an attendant smell of burning.

I had no option but to do about another 150 odd miles before I could contact my dealers, and when advised re. the white smoke and warning, told me to drive the car no further.

They took it in and told me that:

- the injectors were coked to the engine
- one needed replaced
- the 'rocker cover' had been broken in taking the injectors off

But they were adamant that the car having too much oil was not in any way related to the white smoke and burning smell. They stated that this was simply a coincidence, and it did not matter if a small amount of excess oil had been put in

I told them to do the injectors etc. anyway at a cost of £6-700.00

I have been now told by them that having done the work, the problem is not the injectors after all, but that the head gasket must be cracked, and that water was getting into the injectors, and have been quoted £2800.00 - £3,000.00 to fix same.

Again thay stated that the excess oil put in at service had nothing to do with this problem


Honestly, I am at my wit's end. Does anyone have an opinion on what I have been told? I feel that I am being sold a pup, and for it all to happen at once is just too much of a coincidence.

Thanks for reading this long post.

 

[Bolide]

Cylinder head gasket failure

It could be simple Cylinder head gasket failure. Failure isn't related to anything they did during servicing

I'm surprised they didn't detect the failed CHG when you took the car back in and they replaced the injectors. I'd have thought that white smoke from the engine would have rung a few alarm bells. What were the water & oil levels like before and after the incident?

Was the car overheating during or after the white smoke incident? If it was you've quite possibly cooked the engine by driving it 150 miles with a failed CHG and the head may be warped or cracked. If it's cracked you'll need a new head (or the crack will need to be welded and the head remachined) and the bill will be huge

Your question now is whether to get the Merc dealer or an independent do the work. I'd tell them to do nothing and try and get a goodwill contribution from Mercedes for the work. If Mercedes offer goodwill I'd get the dealer to do the work. If they refuse I'd get an independent or diesel specialist to do it. Either way it'll be cheaper than just saying OK to the dealer

I don't really see how the failure can be related to the service - what was done? An oil & filter change?

Nick Froome
www.w124.co.uk

 

[kingsize]

Thanks for the response. I'll try to answer your queries as best I can.

The service was the full MB service,oil, filters etc - about £400.00, also ancillary items - brake pads, discs etc

Water and oil levels were both fine to my knowledge both before and after - no warnings there.

I was not aware of any engine oveheating - as I say the only warning on the dash was the 'excess oil' one.



I cannot understand how they can say -


needs some more work but no rush

oh, its the injectors, they need de-coked and new seals put on and maybe one replaced

Actually, we think the gasket is cracked and needs replaced, and the problem was not the injectors after all.



In effect, it seems like either incompetence, or wilful misinformation.


And I do not want to go in and make a fool of myself, arguing from a position of no knowledge.



Thanks again for your help.

 

[Bolide]

Turn it around

Turn it around and look at it the other way. If you were running the workshop and had a car come in that displayed symptoms that could be injectors or a CHG you'd suggest the cheaper job be done first, wouldn't you?

The only thing I think you could take issue with is their fault-finding procedure. But they should know these cars better than anyone else and I wouldn't want to argue the toss with a highly-trained Mercedes workshop technician as to what part to replace next

I'd sit down with the Workshop Manager and/or Dealer Principal and ask him to explain exactly what was done at each stage, what the options were at each stage, and what the options are going forward. Then ask him if he'd do anything differently if another car came in with the same symptoms. If he says "No, the procedure was correct and is how it's laid down" there's not much you can say. If he admits things weren't handled particularly well then negotiate a way out

Just don't go in all guns blazing - IMHO it'll get you nowhere. Work out what you want to achieve (car running 100%, minimum cost, goodwill from Mercedes, etc) and ask him how the pair of you can work together to achieve it. Make it clear that going elsewhere is an option - not as a threat, but as an economic necessity - and ask him what can be done to make sure they finish the job and maintain your custom & goodwill

Nick Froome
www.w124.co.uk

 

[kingsize]

Once again, thanks for the advice.


I am coming from a position where I believed that too much oil in a diesel engine could damage the CHG, moreso than in a petrol - of course, I'm no engineer!


And to be frank, the fact that they were so dismissive/defensive re. the oil situation that raised my hackles, given that they are indeed the experts, and costly ones at that - I had assumed that they would get something so simple right.


Of course it may well be a red herring, but I just cant afford to pay them an extra 3k to fix it.


With the work they have now done on it, could I drve it 10 miles to an independent mechanic, or would it have to be towed?


Thanks again.

 

[malcolm E53 AMG]

Circa 3K is a lot of money to spend on an engine that has done 100K miles.

As I see it the options are:

1) Get some figures from an independant re the cost of replacing the head gasket (but this is not all they might find).

2) There is a probability that a specialist breaker may have a good engine in stock from a 210 write-off.

3) If staying within the MB franchise do as Bolide says and try and negotiate a discount (at the very least you should be eligble for a 10% discount due to the age of the car). This will not be offered you will have to ask.

I would have thought that if you are a long standing customer and they want to keep your trade they will be prepared to negotiate. Having said that its worth doing your homework on items 1 and 2 above before you sit down with the dealer so that you know all your options.

Hope you get it sorted without taking out a second mortgage, its a situation we all dread.

Good Luck!

ps. The oil level indicators are very sensitive, I have had this message 'reduce oil level' on a number of occasions.

 

[philharve]

If anyone can advise I would be so thankful.

Two weeks ago, left my 2001 E220 CDi in for a Mercedes Service (99k miles and full merc service at the appropriate intervals).

£800.00 later, was advised that I would have to re-book for further work, as there was a 'slight' fuel leak, and the car was a bit sluggish, but was told that I could book it in at my convenience, i.e. not urgent.

Hi kingsize

My heartfelt condolences and I hope this issue has a happy ending for you. I can appreciate you feeling that the dealer must have done something wrong during the service and you are now picking up the bill for their incompetence.

I would like to know if there were any unusual symptoms prior to taking your car in for service? Had you any reason to suspect there was anything wrong?

I'm surprised by the size of the bill for a major service! A GBP800.00 bill is an awful lot of money, especially since they hadn't completed the work.

Evidently they regarded the additional work as fairly minor if you could take your time in deciding when it book your car in again for further attention. Their 'non-urgent' advice suggests to me the dealer was also oblivious to any problems. I don't think they would permit your car to leave the workshop if they suspected there were any serious problems lurking in the engine.

It may be pure coincidence that whatever happened 200 miles later was totally unrelated to the service. I can understand you making a link between the service and the subsequent failure but proving it, even if there is such a link, will be difficult. You need to be clear about what exactly occured and the circumstances which could lead up to it. If those circumstances involves something to do with servicing you might be able to establish a link. If you do, your liabilities may be reduced considerably.

I think all the advice you've received so far is pretty sound and cool-headed and there's nothing I can add at this juncture. I would explain to the dealer that you can't afford the costs of repairs and ask them to provide you with alternatives.

How long have you had your car?

PS - you've chosen an unfortunate ID considering the size of your problem.

REGARDS Phil

 

[kingsize]

Thanks guys.


I have now spoken (second hand) to a mechanic, who advises that excess oil may overflow and get into the cylinder head and through a build up of heat make it crack...again the question is how one could prove this happened..




At the moment, I am considering taking the car away from the MB dealers and getting a local mechanic to do the work - I cant imagine he will charge in the region of 3k.



As for negotiating a discount or waiver, no chance with these guys, they are the only MB dealers in the area and have a captive audience.



It galls me that, having been assured that the problem was the injectors and shelling out £700 odd to rectify the problem, to be told that it is in fact something else entirely that is going to cost 3k.



Not to be too cynical, but I can't get away from the feeling that there is some retrospective fleecing going on...



But on a brighter note, your assistance is really appreciated, even though I am using you as a sounding board for my total ignorance of all things mechanical....if you ever need any free legal advice, please do ask...

 

[kingsize]

Hi kingsize

My heartfelt condolences and I hope this issue has a happy ending for you. I can appreciate you feeling that the dealer must have done something wrong during the service and you are now picking up the bill for their incompetence.

I would like to know if there were any unusual symptoms prior to taking your car in for service? Had you any reason to suspect there was anything wrong?

I'm surprised by the size of the bill for a major service! A GBP800.00 bill is an awful lot of money, especially since they hadn't completed the work.

Evidently they regarded the additional work as fairly minor if you could take your time in deciding when it book your car in again for further attention. Their 'non-urgent' advice suggests to me the dealer was also oblivious to any problems. I don't think they would permit your car to leave the workshop if they suspected there were any serious problems lurking in the engine.

It may be pure coincidence that whatever happened 200 miles later was totally unrelated to the service. I can understand you making a link between the service and the subsequent failure but proving it, even if there is such a link, will be difficult. You need to be clear about what exactly occured and the circumstances which could lead up to it. If those circumstances involves something to do with servicing you might be able to establish a link. If you do, your liabilities may be reduced considerably.

I think all the advice you've received so far is pretty sound and cool-headed and there's nothing I can add at this juncture. I would explain to the dealer that you can't afford the costs of repairs and ask them to provide you with alternatives.

How long have you had your car?

PS - you've chosen an unfortunate ID considering the size of your problem.

REGARDS Phil

Thanks for making me laugh...

The service bill included new brake discs and brake pads - normal service with these guys is about £400.00 odd.


Had the car just under two years, and apart from servicing, had the carbon removed fron the cylinder head at the injectors one year ago - strange that it needed done again so soon..


As for any prior problems, some smoke on acceleration, and perhaps mild sluggishness - this was explained to me as one of the injector seals leaking - but what do I know?


You are right, it's hard for me not to make the link, and harder for me to accept that the car was sent out on the road again without any suggestion that such a catastrophic failure may occur.


I appreciate that such incidents may be unpredictable, but just when i put it all together it does not seem kosher.


They were so defensive about the excess oil, and even today stated that 'the oil level was fine when the oil was cool, it only registed as excess when the engine heated it' - perhaps I am being stupid, but that seemed like a rather lame and singularly insulting explanation for the error...


And to add insult to injury, they lent me an A class with a slow puncture and no petrol....grrr...

 

[cubicincubi]

sorry to read of the bad news.

too much oil in the sump will end up being pumped past the rings into the combustion chamber.

this will effectively have an effect which causes high cylinder temps and will lead to HG failure. It is pretty standard industry knowledge and well documented.

I believe you should get an independant professional opinion and threaten small claims court/trading standards action. I think you have a winner. Write a letter to the dealership principal.

As the crankshaft rotates churning the oil, not only will it throw oil up against the piston, pumping past the rings, but also causing aeration and eventually sustained foam forms. This can lead to overheated motor oil, oxidation and a loss of oil pressure. Spongy aerated oil is hard to pump. It starves the engine and critical lubricated surfaces.

result - head and cylinder get hot, crack, warp and head gasket spits its dummy out.

 

[brianq12]

You should get yourself a decent solicitor and then go back to them. I have a CLK and its far from the reliable machine Mercedes makes it out to be.
Sensors, electric seat controls, ball joints, wiper and more already replaced.
6 year old car, my mother drives a Fiesta 3 years older and heater control only electic ever broke.

 

[jberks]

There has been discussion on whether the higher oil level caused the head gasket failure but I wonder whether a catastrophic gasket failure caused the oil level warning. If the level was way too high, I would have expected the warning well before 200 miles. On top of this, you say that the smoke and warning came on together. Assuming the oil and diesel were suddenly mixing under high pressure, then all bets are off.
I am reluctant to blame the dealer for the original problem. I suspect this is just plain bad luck. It may even be that with clean oil topped up correctly, the slightly higher oil pressure was enough to push a failing gasket over the edge.
As far as cost is concerned, Assuming no contribution from MB or the dealer, get an indie to pull the head off and get it pressure tested. Then make a decision on whether to fix or replace.

Too late now but I suspect that if an indie had done the injectors then a) the cost would have been several hundred less in the first place and b) they would have waived some of their profit when they discovered they were wrong. When my local indie spent ages chasing a fault down a blind alley, I wasn't charged for all the time spent, just a token and the cost to fix the actual problem. As a result, I am now a loyal customer.

In any case, as I keep saying, dealer service work is for when someone else is picking up the tab, and I speak as someone whose previous mercs had FMBSH. Those of us who own our cars should use indies (I do and mine is only 16 months old and MB warrantied for the next 2 1/2 years!)

 

[dougtsc]

Sorry for the thread creap but have you got a name and address for your Indie

Thanks

 

[Rory]

There has been discussion on whether the higher oil level caused the head gasket failure but I wonder whether a catastrophic gasket failure caused the oil level warning. If the level was way too high, I would have expected the warning well before 200 miles.

I thought that too - although the dealers explanation that the oil expanded when hot is somewhat bizzare.
You also obviously didn't help your case by driving for another 150 miles.

However I di think it's unreasonable to make you pay for the injectors if they didn't make any difference - why should customers be expected to pay for MB's 'fault finding by replacement of parts' technique.

You could contact the helpline of, say, WhatCar, and see if they'll help. MB might suddenly be keen to help out in the face of publicity.

 

[jberks]

Sorry for the thread creap but have you got a name and address for your Indie

Thanks

No worries - I assume you mean mine as I'm the only one to mention them.
In Leeds - is that any use to you?
Anyway
http://www.merc-care.com

 

[citroennut]

hi kingsize,
i would advise asking the dealership for a mercedes address to which you can write to complain, if you are thinking of taking the car from them, you may find it works wonders. i had the same sort of problem - though not as severe, which was very quickly put right through 'goodwill'. the dealership has now changed and i cannot rate them highly enough, very reasonable and helpful.
cheers
simon

 

[dougtsc]

No worries - I assume you mean mine as I'm the only one to mention them.
In Leeds - is that any use to you?
Anyway
http://www.merc-care.com

Thanks for that. I was hoping that you might be in Berkshire being jberks. Thanks anyway.

 

[JohnnyGurkha]

Thanks for that. I was hoping that you might be in Berkshire being jberks. Thanks anyway.

Dougtsc. I posted yesterday about Star Motors in Caversham, Reading. They have been excellent for the short time I have known them. Is that close to you?

 

[kingsize]

Update, conclusion, and many many thanks!

Well, thanks everyone for the help.


Your advice and suggestions were of singular assistance, and the matter has now resolved most amicably.



I was able to use the knowledge gleaned from your responses to make a forceful case to the MB dealership, resulting in an outcome that is very satisfactory to myself and my wallet!



Again, many thanks, moreso for giving ready assistance to a first time poster like myself.


Good luck to you all...


Kingsize

 

[Parrot of Doom]

So what was the outcome?