ATF contaminated with coolant destroys autobox

[Nick Sussex]

thanks Malcolm. your advice is appreciated. are you a m-b engineer/mechanic? why is it that m-b dealers have told some of the forum members that the gearbox needs replacing if this occurs? can shards, filings, of the damaged clutches travel through the gearbox and cause problems? what is the actual mechanism of the fault? I am a chartered mech engineer and understand temps., pressures, cavitation, friction etc.
____________________

Nick Sussex

 

[television]

Hello Nick. Point one I am not a MB engineer but I do have a very good engineering background that started back in the 50's with much more knowledge gained from RR.

The part that is affected is the clutch materials built into the torque converter, these units are welded up at the build stage and cannot be opened again, well they could but no one has.

It would appear that it is the glycol that alters the friction surface rather than the water content on the clutch surfaces. Years ago when clutches or brake linings got contaminated with oil, we used to soak them in white spirit and set light to them and burn the oil off with varying degrees of success, but we cant do that with a torque converter.

The rest of the box is just gears and bearings. When a head gasket goes on an engine one just replaces it, and carry on as normal, and the amount of water in these things is 1000 times more the the Valeo leak into the gear box, the amount is so small many people do not notice any change in the water level in the system. Any water would soon evaporate as these things run at 80c-100c and it is not possible to find any water on the dip stick.

So the chances of any damage to the rest of the box is almost nil in my view, and in any case all of these fluids do take in moisture and absorb it, that's why we change the brake fluid every 2 years, and the brakes run in a tighter seal environment than gearbox fluid.

I hope that this helps, I do stress that this is my view, but I am a practical person.

 

[Yadagi]

Reading this thread with great interest.

After reading this thread, I would like to ask the more knowledgeable members, whether they think that my W203035 C180, 02, auto could have the same problem.
I have had a jerky gear change between 1-2, both up and down, for about 3 weeks now.
I also have had for a bit longer a droning noise that appears only on accelaration, at mid to high speeds,it stops when I take my foot off the accelarator,and my engine light did come on a few months ago but as the car was driving fine after an initial juddering, i did not get it looked at, and it was reset at the service. No faults as far as I know.
I have tried looking under the hood to see if I can see the radiator make , but can't see what it is, although I can see there is a large traditional looking one , and a smaller rad which is at an angle in front of the big one.
We have just had a b service by an independant mechanic, who topped up the ATF (1 litre) as it was low.
Any ideas if I am barking up the wrong tree.
Hopefully my posting on this thread will not kill it as I seem to be doing on others.

 

[television]

This fault affect all 203's to the 30-09-03 you must get the car tested for Glycol in the gearbox fluid, its a simple quick test, any MB dealer can do it.

Modified cars have a white circle sticker on the oil cooler on the top

 

[Yadagi]

Thanks Malcolm,
Will they charge me for testing for Glycol, and would non MB mechanics know how to do test for it.?
As mine is a 203 2002 model, it would seem logical that it may be affected.
Excuse my ignorance , but what is the modification?
I Will check for the white ring tommorow, as it is a tad dark out side now.
BTW I love this forum, I am learning so much.

 

[television]

In the first place the rad is changed, and the fluid drained and pumped out, if the juddering / droning continues the the torque converter is changed, its worth trying the car for a while after the fluid and rad change as they can take a little time to settle.

The test should be free, it consist of a test strip like the ones diabetics use that changes when the fluid is on the strip and any glycol is present, this is done from the box dip stick, there is no reason why your indi should not do the test, he should know of the fault, I do have the info if he is stuck

 

[Yadagi]

Have just called MB of Hertford, who want to charge me to do the glycol test, at least £66 pounds.
They do not have any idea about the Vlaeo rad, and the design fault.
Will go and see my independeant non MB mechanic, and ask him about it. Will post back and let you know.

 

[The physician]

May I ask if a W208 1999 CLK cab is likely to be affected?
Many thanks.

 

[television]

May I ask if a W208 1999 CLK cab is likely to be affected?
Many thanks.

No sir, only the 209 along with the 203 and 211

 

[Nick Sussex]

Malcolm,
Thank you for your kind assistance. It does sound as if you know what you are talking about.
So in essence, if my radiator and torque converter have been changed, it would seem in your opinion that the gearbox will be okay - even though I have done about 2500 miles with the judder arising.
Would driving in this way have affected my fuel injectors? They were diagnosed faulty last week and 3 no have been replaced.
Nick Sussex

 

[television]

My answer in post 42 stands as best as I can write it up.

Re the injectors, this has nothing to do with that at all, 3 injectors tells me that whoever did the job was not too sure of the problem. Normally they can be sent away and re conditioned for a fraction of the new price on a one day turn round basis, most injectors will cover more than 150k without a problem.

I always have my doubts when more than one has been changed

 

[Yadagi]

Hi again,
I went to see the mechanic who serviced my car , but he does not do the glycol test and would not want to get involved with replacing the ATF.
Advised me to got to MERC-CARE in Southgate, who I have been to before, and see whether they will be able to do it.
So have I got this correct,?
1.I will ask them to see if they can see the make of the radiator, and if it is a Valeo,
2.Then next step do a Glycol test, which if it is positive, would be the likely cause of my problems.
3.Would it then be ok for me to ask them to replace the ATF before doing anything else and then drive the car for a few day's to see if the problem is resolved.
Off I got to Merc-Care tommorow.
P.S, have just been searching over on the other forum and found this posted by Television.
"The Valeo problem effects the following cars up to 30.09.03

203 with the 111,112,271,6121990,646 engine
209 ---------112,113,271,612 engine
211----------113,271,628,647,648 engine

The effects are described as Humming,droning/and or jolting during gentle acceleration at engine speeds between 1200 and 2500 RPM

To test use glycol method on the transmission fluid.

Modified rads have a white circle on the oil cooler on the top"
My engine no (from russian site) is 111951 32 417737.

All help is greatly appreciated, as I am not prepared to be ripped off as has happened to me in the past by a mechanic I thought was honest.

 

[Yadagi]

Hi all,
Just a quick update, went to see Merc Care last week who knew straight away what the problem was, infact they had another C class Coupe in with the same problem that week.
They did a quick dipstick on the ATF and said it looked as if there was water in there,"as the ATF goes cloudy when it is contaminated with coolant."

They are going to price up for me,for a new radiator, torque converter, and gearbox overhaul, oil flush and replace ATF.
I am also going to call Stephens Transmission Specialists in N13, and get a quote from them too,as money is tight at the moment. My hubbies new Nissan van has given up the ghost, and he only had it a day and a bit. Engine has gone, and possibly will need to be rebuilt. Lets see if Nissan do the right thing and offer goodwill, as it was only 5 weeks out of warranty with full Nisan service history and low mileage.
Also BTW, have switched the car to W and it is not jerking but I still get the droning at above 50 mph.

 

[television]

Hi all,
Just a quick update, went to see Merc Care last week who knew straight away what the problem was, infact they had another C class Coupe in with the same problem that week.
They did a quick dipstick on the ATF and said it looked as if there was water in there,"as the ATF goes cloudy when it is contaminated with coolant."

They are going to price up for me,for a new radiator, torque converter, and gearbox overhaul, oil flush and replace ATF.
I am also going to call Stephens Transmission Specialists in N13, and get a quote from them too,as money is tight at the moment. My hubbies new Nissan van has given up the ghost, and he only had it a day and a bit. Engine has gone, and possibly will need to be rebuilt. Lets see if Nissan do the right thing and offer goodwill, as it was only 5 weeks out of warranty with full Nisan service history and low mileage.
Also BTW, have switched the car to W and it is not jerking but I still get the droning at above 50 mph.

You do not normally fit a new torque converter without change the Rad,fluid and filter first and trying it, you could save a lot of money.

Stevens are very good

 

[Yadagi]

Hi all again,
I called Merc care, to get their quote, and was told to sit down
For a recon gearbox, new torque convertor,radiator, ATF, vat and labour......... £2776.
Then went to Stephens, and spoke to Jason, who got Tony their Merc expert to test drive it, and he agreed the torque and gears are damaged.
They quoted me for a same as before, but reconditioning the torque instead of a new one. Total cost £2120. Jason also showed me another torque convertor which had water damage, and I saw the friction plates and the damage to their surface.
So now we are thinking what to do.???

 

[television]

Do not forget there is no known case of the gears being damaged for the Valeo problem

 

[Yadagi]

Hi Malcolm,
Sorry it's late and I'm rather stressed out with the news of my car today. R u saying the gears are not damaged/affected by the possible water in the ATF?
What Stepehns said is that after dipsticking the ATF they could not tell whether it had water in it, and they said that doing a glycol test is irrelevant, as only when they open up the convertor will they be able to see if there is water in it.Apparently, as they showed me today, the friction plates have a thin layer of some sort of rubber/silcone that gets all mushy and wears off. This they can see and if it has occured, then it is a water problem.
It's so hard trying to understand what is going on and knowing what to do.
To be honest we have been talking about selling the car,as we have to also fork out for an engine rebuild on my husbands 3 year old van which he had for less than 2 day's before it went wrong.
Is there any chance that the jerking problem would be solved by changing the rad and convertor and flushing the ATF only???.
Still don't know if I have a Valeo, as I cannot (or the mechanics) see what it is.
Only label we saw on the side facing the engine said TIMIC and some numbers.
Thanks again, and any advice is greatly apreciated.

 

[television]

Hi Malcolm,
Sorry it's late and I'm rather stressed out with the news of my car today. R u saying the gears are not damaged/affected by the possible water in the ATF?
What Stepehns said is that after dipsticking the ATF they could not tell whether it had water in it, and they said that doing a glycol test is irrelevant, as only when they open up the convertor will they be able to see if there is water in it.Apparently, as they showed me today, the friction plates have a thin layer of some sort of rubber/silcone that gets all mushy and wears off. This they can see and if it has occured, then it is a water problem.
It's so hard trying to understand what is going on and knowing what to do.
To be honest we have been talking about selling the car,as we have to also fork out for an engine rebuild on my husbands 3 year old van which he had for less than 2 day's before it went wrong.
Is there any chance that the jerking problem would be solved by changing the rad and convertor and flushing the ATF only???.
Still don't know if I have a Valeo, as I cannot (or the mechanics) see what it is.
Only label we saw on the side facing the engine said TIMIC and some numbers.
Thanks again, and any advice is greatly apreciated.

Yes the juddering and droning is only the torque converter. There is hardly any water or very little that goes into the box, not enough to affect the water level in the cooling. The maker of the rad is Valeo,

You do not need a new box, just the Radiator and the torque converter

 

[Yadagi]

I'm still up and reading, thanks so much for getting back to me.
If the car is jerking in S drive only at the change between gears 1-2, both when stopping and starting, and does not do this when in stopping and staring in 2nd gear as in W drive, does that mean there is not gear box damage, and it can be caused by the convertor alone?
Sorry to ask again, but I will need to be able to tell them this with confidence,
as this will mean I can afford to keep the car and get it fixed.
The reconditioned box alone is £950 + vat and labour.

 

[television]

I'm still up and reading, thanks so much for getting back to me.
If the car is jerking in S drive only at the change between gears 1-2, both when stopping and starting, and does not do this when in stopping and staring in 2nd gear as in W drive, does that mean there is not gear box damage, and it can be caused by the convertor alone?
Sorry to ask again, but I will need to be able to tell them this with confidence,
as this will mean I can afford to keep the car and get it fixed.
The reconditioned box alone is £950 + vat and labour.

Yes As I said before the gears cant make the car jerk, this is down to the torque converter alone.

I still have not heard of one car where the box has been replaced for this issue