Changed ATF Should I worry

[Devonian]

I just changed the ATF on my W210 following Parrot of Doom's post (great post by the way made the job easy), or rather I changed the filter and diluted the oil as I only changed about 3.5 ltrs.
However what is worrying me is what I found in the old oil, two small pieces of metal which I have pictured (not the pen of course )
Should I worry about this, is a major failure imminent ? or is this normal?

 

[eric242340]

I just changed the ATF on my W210 following Parrot of Doom's post (great post by the way made the job easy), or rather I changed the filter and diluted the oil as I only changed about 3.5 ltrs.
However what is worrying me is what I found in the old oil, two small pieces of metal which I have pictured (not the pen of course )
Should I worry about this, is a major failure imminent ? or is this normal?

Hello Devonian, yes this is something to worry about - its white metal which means one of the bearings is begining to collapse, could you give more details about your car ( age, mileage, ect)?:neutral:

 

[Devonian]

Thanks for the response, It's an E200K Yr 2001 with 62,000 miles. The fluid drained out didn't seem too bad, not black more a brownish gold, I have not experienced any problems with the auto box, it seems to change smoothly. I just did the fluid change due to it's mileage

 

[eric242340]

Thanks for the response, It's an E200K Yr 2001 with 62,000 miles. The fluid drained out didn't seem too bad, not black more a brownish gold, I have not experienced any problems with the auto box, it seems to change smoothly. I just did the fluid change due to it's mileage

Were these the only two pieces, or where there lots of tiny, and I mean very tiny, metal flecks in the oil?

 

[Devonian]

no only these two Gold coloured pieces. I checked very carefully when cleaning out the sump.Apart from these pieces there was nothing else. The magnet was also very clean

 

[eric242340]

no only these two Gold coloured pieces. I checked very carefully when cleaning out the sump.Apart from these pieces there was nothing else. The magnet was also very clean

The magnet would be clean because the metal you found is non-ferrus, ie not iron and therefore not collectable with a magnet. I know exactly which component this metal came from, and if you found no tiny flecks of the same colour, then, no need to worry just now. However, you say you changed 3.5 L of oil? Why so little?

 

[Devonian]

bacause the torque converter didn't have a drain plug and this is all that came from the sump.
From reading other threads on here it seems that if you can't drain the torque converter then the best thing to do is change the oil in the sump therefore just diluting the old fluid
Is this not correct?

 

[eric242340]

bacause the torque converter didn't have a drain plug and this is all that came from the sump.
From reading other threads on here it seems that if you can't drain the torque converter then the best thing to do is change the oil in the sump therefore just diluting the old fluid
Is this not correct?

Correct, but 3.5 Ltr? How did you check the fluid level after the oil change?

 

[Devonian]

Well I was a bit concerned anbout getting the level correct so what I did was first to measure the level with a home made dipstick before starting the job (as explained on other posts) and it was just about correct.
Then I collected all the fluid that was drained (just under 3 ltrs), a small amount was spilled, so I replaced 3 ltrs then ran the engine, ran through the gears and checked again, Took the car out for a run and re checked and added a little more. Total used came to about 3.5 ltrs.
Is this less than you would nave expected?

 

[eric242340]

Well I was a bit concerned anbout getting the level correct so what I did was first to measure the level with a home made dipstick before starting the job (as explained on other posts) and it was just about correct.
Then I collected all the fluid that was drained (just under 3 ltrs), a small amount was spilled, so I replaced 3 ltrs then ran the engine, ran through the gears and checked again, Took the car out for a run and re checked and added a little more. Total used came to about 3.5 ltrs.
Is this less than you would nave expected?

In this circumstance we would put 4Ltr before starting the checks and a (home made dipstick?) I worry in case because there is some transmission damage and if you havent put the correct amount of fluid - then say no more..

 

[Parrot of Doom]

If the fluid is too low, the most obvious sign will be when you put your foot down in 1st and it goes nowhere for a couple of seconds.

If you only did 3.5 litres, I'd drive it for a few miles, drain some more off, and top up again, just to dilute it further.

 

[Devonian]

Thank you both for your replies. Just to clarify the "home made dipstick" this was as in :-
http://forums.mercedesclub.org.uk/showthread.php?t=25315&highlight=dipstick

I will take your advice and add some more fluid and check levels again. Perhaps I will order the correct dipstick from MB to be safe.

Eric, You said no need to worry just now? does that mean I need to worry in the future? -- see I'm worrying already :-(

Andy

 

[aa1]

Break the plastic housing on top of the filter and have a look inside it. AA

 

[Devonian]

I think it's geting worse

On AA's advice I have broken open the old filter and found more metal pieces in the bottom and some flecks of metal on the filter element (pictures attached).
Somehow this doesn't seem right for a box with only 62K !!
So what's the consensus of opinion chaps? I am in for a new gearbox pretty soon? or is it time to rid myself of this car (though I don't really want to do that as it isn't right to pass this to someone else and tuck them up ! )
Should I continue driving until something major fails or is it better to do something about it now?

 

[eric242340]

On AA's advice I have broken open the old filter and found more metal pieces in the bottom and some flecks of metal on the filter element (pictures attached).
Somehow this doesn't seem right for a box with only 62K !!
So what's the consensus of opinion chaps? I am in for a new gearbox pretty soon? or is it time to rid myself of this car (though I don't really want to do that as it isn't right to pass this to someone else and tuck them up ! )
Should I continue driving until something major fails or is it better to do something about it now?

I said I recognised the metal you showed, and unfortunately, I was right. After a quick check today, I find you have the unmodified box. This box has a bushing in the centre drive and was later changed to a bearing. What you are seeing is the remaines of this bushing and once this collapses the whole drive goes with it . So im sorry to say you have a major headache. Replace the main drive in the box for the modified version or sell the car

 

[Devonian]

Eric,
Thanks for that news Certainly not good news but at least I am informed. I bought the car 6 months ago from a dealer (not MB) with a 12 month warranty. I presume I wont actually have a claim until the box fails, any idea how long it is likely to last?
Warranty aside do you think I should keep driving it as it is or would it be better (or cheaper) to get something done about it now.
Unfortunately since I only bought the car 6 months ago and have spent £2K on and LPG conversion (was thinking of keeping it for a few years ) if I were to sell now I suspect I would lose quite a bit on it, maybe more than a new box would cost.
Damn this is my first mercedes and doesn't look like it is going to be a good experience, I wish I had looked on this forum first before buying as I'm sure I could have chosen slightly more wisely

 

[panason1c]

Hope this article from a US site (below) reasures you that you probably DONT have a problem.....be sure to check the colour of the shavings AFTER you have washed the transmission fluid off them as the reddish colour of the trans fluid can make the shavings appear to be a copper color (not good!)...whereby, silver shavings would be 'normal' wear........

Edit.....I've just looked at the pics you posted (couldnt see them earlier due to cpr probs) ......those pieces look a little too big to be 'shavings' ....i think maybe you should be concerned!


Filled for life?
The 722.6 Automatic Transmission uses a special oil and is said to be filled for life. The oil can only be purchased through the Mercedes-Benz dealer using part number 001-989-21-03-10. A 722.6 holds about 9.3 liters and the fluid is sold by the liter. Checking the fluid is accomplished by breaking off the red locking seal located at the dip stick. the lock is replaced after the oil is checked. Use part number 140-991-00-55 for a new lock. There is no dip stick to check the ATF. You need a special tool to check the fluid on all 722.6 transmissions, part number 140-589-15-21-00. The oil level is a critical factor in transmission shifting. See Service Information 27A95105 for details. When you refill, or check thetransmission fluid level make sure that you check the level with the special tool and at the correct temperature. The latest information from Germany is that we should fill the oil to the MAX line. Not overfilled, just maxed out. This is said to improve shift quality. At normal level it is possible for the oil to form air bubbles. The increased level helps to minimize this. You might want to remember to try this on customer complaints involving shift quality before you replace any component. Along with setting the adaptation you would be surprised to see how much of an improvement you will see.

The Automatic Transmission fluid is said to be filled for life. We never specified who's life. (Yes, they actually wrote that in this!-DG) The transmission control module contains a program that keeps a running count of the "calculated" cndition of the ATF oil. (Note from Gilly-I believe this was deleted from the modules right around 2001-2002, not there anymore-DG) The factors that affect the oil are time and temperature. The counter is incremented with engine running time and incremented greater with higher ATF temperatures. The Hand-Held Tester (now SDS-DG) displays a numerical value that represents the value of the calculation. At some given point in time Germany will tell us (still waiting, evidently-DG) which number means its time to change the oil. For now there is no service interval for the ATF oil. If you replace a transmission you should re-set the counter back to zero to account for the new oil. If you are doing internal work and you are replacing the oil you should also re-set the counter. It is acceptable to drain the oil out into a clean container and reuse it, provided it was collected using the MB filter funnel. Remember to flush the converter and kines before installing the new transmission. You should also replace the converter if the transmission was HEAVILY contaminated with metal. Make sure you return the converter with the transmission to warranty. Fine metal particles in the bottom of the pan are allowed. (I think what they mean here is that fine metal particles are considered an "acceptable" condition, do NOT replace transmission, as you will see if you read on:-DG)

The Color of Money:

We have been conditioned to judge the quality of the transmission fluid based solely on it's color and smell. We have no way of judging the frictional quality. The rules have changed. (didn't Iaccoca say that too?-DG) The bright red color that we are all used to seeing may not be what you see when you look at the ATF in a 722.6. The reasons that the oil looks differently are as follows:

1) The oil may appear dark red due to the graphite material that the friction discs contain. This does not change the characteristics of the oil. Do not change the oil or transmission if the oil appears dark red or even if it has a yellowish tint to it. The color will change with time and temperature. As of 10/97, the manufacturer of the oil has agreed to put more red particles in the oil.

2) If a copper color is seen in the oil pan the bushings of the front or rear planetary gear set may be in the process of wearing out. Inspect the bushings and if they are defective replace the complete transmission. If they are not defective, then the transmission is repairable.

3) If a silver color is present in the oil it may be a clutch and steels moving up and down on the hub as they are being applied. This is normal! Use your best judgement here. If the particles are fine they should not cause problems as they will be trapped in the filter. The fluid could be drained, including the torque converter, and the lines flushed and the valve body should be disassembled and cleaned, replace the filter of course. This usually takes care of the problem. If you take the time to inspect and clean each slide valve for ease of movement and base position you will have a better valve body than a new one from spare parts. In more severe cases where the particles are large, then something is in the process of self destruction and the transmission should be either replaced or repaired. Don't forget to check the electrical solenoid valves. Shine a light through the top of it and see if it "leaks". If you drop the transmission oil pan (I think they mean "remove the pan"-DG) and you find yourself feeling like a miner panning for silver, or knee deep in a graphite colored mud, then it's time for a new transmission. You may have noticed that the new pans are painted black on the inside. The metal particles show up better against a black background as opposed to the previous unpainted silver pan. You must get used to seeing some metal in the bottom of the the pan, with this transmission this is normal.

4) Smell the oil. You know by now what burnt oil smells like. If it looks burnt, and it smells burnt, then its burnt.

Example: Try looking at the adaptation values for K3. If the numbers are high, then you have a K3 problem. If the customer is complaining about shift quality going in and out of third gear, repair K3.

5) Make sure you understand the complaint before you disassemble the transmission. Use the HHT (SDS now-DG) adaptation screen values along with the shift application chart to see which shift members are applied during your customer complaint so you will know where to concentrate your efforts when you disassemble. Remember to disassemble the transmission like a surgeon, you need to observe the condition of seals, rings, c-clips and shims as well as being aware of the potential for missing parts.

Repair or Replace:

Use the transmission oil pan as an indicator when deciding to repair or replace the 722.6 transmission.

The following pictures (sorry folks, I'm transcribing the written part only, no pictures-DG) are for reference as to which transmissions should be replaced and which should be repaired.

(picture shows a black pan with some small "dots" here and there-DG) This is a normal oil pan for a 722.6. The fine particles are normal. Do not replace this transmission.

(can't tell what's "wrong" with this picture-DG) The brass colored particles may be a sign of a bushing problem. This transmission may be repaired.

(can't tell by the next picture either what the problem is supposed to be, rotten copies!-DG) The metallic sludge indicates that there is a major mechanical problem. This transmission would probably cost more to repair than to replace.

(This picture you can see obvious copious amounts of metal shavings, a pretty good coating of it-DG) This picture also indicates internal damage has been done. This transmission would be replaced (as well as the TC and flushing lines and cooler, etc-DG).

 

[Parrot of Doom]

Devonian, is the gearbox making any funny noises?

There'll probably be a slight whirrr when its stone cold, but once warmed up it'll be fine. Mine makes a slight whirrr noise (changes pitch with speed) when I'm reversing at 10mph or more when the gearbox is warmed up. I don't think theres a problem there though (other forumites, tell me if thats unusual please!)

I'd just keep an ear on it, as long as its shifting properly, not making silly gear changes, not holding onto gears for too long, etc, it should be ok.

If it starts (IF) doing silly things, then worry. Any grinding noises or loss of gears, get it on the back of a flatbed and get it looked at.

 

[Devonian]

No it's not making any funny noises, not displaying any symptoms or any problems. This only came to light because I changed the ATF for routine maintenance. Probably I'll just keep driving it and hope for the best

Thanks for all your help it's much appreciated

Andy

 

[OmniCognateNeutronRangler]

Panason1c, great post. Interesting that everyone keeps tellimg me thre are no known problems with this gearbox and that they should be silky smooth. It sounds to me like there are quite a lot of problems and MB are expecting complaints.

The thing that worries me is if anyone at my Stealers has seen this. I had the gearox oil changed a couple of weeks ago and it was much better for a week and then got crap again. I wonder if they didn't fill it to the Max mark as mentioned in your post. I also very much doubt they checked the condition of what came out.