Diesel Injectors sizes

[psmart]

Anyone know the dimensions of the 270 diesel injectors and if oversize injectors are available?

 

[Sprint'n'Go]

This sounds serious. What's the problem?

 

[psmart]

This sounds serious. What's the problem?

My fridays post about the TDI Club in North America and the very useful information they have. Basically, if I dont re-install my new ECU chip map, but keep it stock,and install 1size larger injectors, Ill get nearly the same power as the chipmap, but a safer engine and no black smoke when you boot it.I have the kit to reset the engine adaptation, so if I can locate correct injectors (possibly cheap from Ebay as Im a Yorkshireman ), then Im prepared to give it a go and if successful, write it up on th forum.

 

[clive williams]

My fridays post about the TDI Club in North America and the very useful information they have. Basically, if I dont re-install my new ECU chip map, but keep it stock,and install 1size larger injectors, Ill get nearly the same power as the chipmap, but a safer engine and no black smoke when you boot it.I have the kit to reset the engine adaptation, so if I can locate correct injectors (possibly cheap from Ebay as Im a Yorkshireman ), then Im prepared to give it a go and if successful, write it up on th forum.

Hi,

Can I suggest a trip to a Bosch diesel parts agency/supplier, who ought to identify the injector and a suitable upgrade. Our local agency did exactly that for me when I need different glow plugs for a Range Rover/Toyota Tdi hybrid and at the same time was toying with the idea of upping the injectors (didn't need to in the end). The only problem I can see with the injector increase is with emissions. The emissions test in the UK and I assume in Germany is conducted at idle, where a large injector is difficult to control. I would expect a degree of overfuelling at idle or poor spray pattern, both of which will increase the CO and HCs. To counter this the fuel mapping ought to be amended??

Clive

500E
E320CDIT210

 

[Sprint'n'Go]

The emissions test in the UK and I assume in Germany is conducted at idle, where a large injector is difficult to control. I would expect a degree of overfuelling at idle or poor spray pattern, both of which will increase the CO and HCs. To counter this the fuel mapping ought to be amended??

I wondered about emissions/spray pattern but also worried more about fuel consumption as surely a higher flow injector will inject more fuel? Maybe this would be balanced by driving at lower accelorator levels so injector opening duration would be shorter unless at full throttle?

As far as I know, the last time I took a diesel for an MOT the emissions test was done at high revs while petrol engines are tested at idle and possibley also at around 2000rpm.

 

[psmart]

From what Ive researched, the idle fuel delivery quantity is the only issue as the ECU is balancing injector opening time against the oxygen sensor and also turbo air delivery. The spray pattern should be fine and the cylinder pressure/exhaust temperature etc are all approx standard, as compared to a chip which keeps the injector open for longer in the power stroke whilst the piston is decending, causing extra heat, smoke from unburnt fuel etc.

If my car was a manual, then Id need to adjust the Variable Nozzle Turbo to ensure I didnt get 'shudder' at low rpm/high load, but with an automatic, this does not seem to be a problem.

When I get back to the UK, I'll see if the diagnostic software I have will physically reset the fuel delivery at idle (like you can do with VAG) and if so, I'll give it a go. It can certainly see the injector opening times whilst engine is running, so fuel re-calculations should be feasible for a larger injector.

Bosch websites are pretty useless, so as per Clive's suggestion, I'll have to visit a dealer to get a correct size. Funny that not many people are into tweaking Mercs, but VAG etc, there is loads of information.

 

[clive williams]

I wondered about emissions/spray pattern but also worried more about fuel consumption as surely a higher flow injector will inject more fuel? Maybe this would be balanced by driving at lower accelorator levels so injector opening duration would be shorter unless at full throttle?

As far as I know, the last time I took a diesel for an MOT the emissions test was done at high revs while petrol engines are tested at idle and possibley also at around 2000rpm.

Sprint,

Its some time since I was present at an emission test for a diesel but I thought that the procedure was to rev the unit up to the maximum allowable and then test the emission immediately afterwards at idle. Its this procedure that caused me most agro with the Rangey/Toyota hybrid as the fueling at the bottom end of the rev range was too rich to account for the turbo intercooler that I fitted. At higher revs it was fine. I used to have to reset the fueling immediately prior to the test and then afterwards put it back, usually just outside the gates in full view of the tester!

Clive

500E
E320CDIT210

 

[Blobcat]

Sprint,

Its some time since I was present at an emission test for a diesel but I thought that the procedure was to rev the unit up to the maximum allowable and then test the emission immediately afterwards at idle. Its this procedure that caused me most agro with the Rangey/Toyota hybrid as the fueling at the bottom end of the rev range was too rich to account for the turbo intercooler that I fitted. At higher revs it was fine. I used to have to reset the fueling immediately prior to the test and then afterwards put it back, usually just outside the gates in full view of the tester!

Clive

500E
E320CDIT210

Multiple fuel maps is really what you require. I have heard of car manufactureres having a differing fuel map when the bonnet is open to pass emissions tests
In the bike world Ducati fit a large front sprocket when first delivered so that they can pass noise regulations. At first service this is changed so for the same road speed the rev's are increased, giving more noise and more power.

 

[Sprint'n'Go]

so if I can locate correct injectors (possibly cheap from Ebay as Im a Yorkshireman ), then Im prepared to give it a go and if successful, write it up on th forum.

Last time mercedes replaced the 5 injectors on my van it should have cost £180ea + fitting + vat. So probably over a grand all in. The yorkshire man in you should instantly see that this is at least double what a re-map or plug in box would cost although as you say they could be cheaper from a non merc supplier.

Cost aside, it does sound like an elegant solution to the tuning game so keep trying and do keep us all informed.

 

[psmart]

Last time mercedes replaced the 5 injectors on my van it should have cost £180ea + fitting + vat. So probably over a grand all in. The yorkshire man in you should instantly see that this is at least double what a re-map or plug in box would cost although as you say they could be cheaper from a non merc supplier.

Cost aside, it does sound like an elegant solution to the tuning game so keep trying and do keep us all informed.

I know there costly, hence will try to get reconditioned/ebay germany ones. I only need a few extra bhp (say 190-200) to make overtaking quicker and prefer to not damage the car, so 1 size injector up should see it nicely over the 215bhp chip map I have. I'm siding away from the remap, given that my turbo is 'leaking' round the VNT (Variable Nozzle) actuator and that the engine ECU reported an 'unfeasibly high temperature' fault!

 

[psmart]

Cheap new Injectors...

Last time mercedes replaced the 5 injectors on my van it should have cost £180ea + fitting + vat. So probably over a grand all in. The yorkshire man in you should instantly see that this is at least double what a re-map or plug in box would cost although as you say they could be cheaper from a non merc supplier.

Cost aside, it does sound like an elegant solution to the tuning game so keep trying and do keep us all informed.

A guy on ebay has 30 brand new ones for sale (standard unfortunately)... but for anyone needing 1, see http://cgi.ebay.de/Einspritzduese-I...075119850QQcategoryZ61258QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Works out at about 100quid each all in. Not too difficult a job to self-replace from what I studied whilst my engine was semi-naked!

This guy has 4 new ones which work out about 70quid each http://cgi.ebay.de/Einspritzduese-M...076828639QQcategoryZ33554QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

 

[Sprint'n'Go]

What about genuine injectors? Does Mercedes fit the same injector into all the 270 CDI engines considering the differing outputs they rate them at (156bhp in sprinter, 160 something in ML and 177bhp in the passenger cars). Perhaps the injectors are bigger in the 177bhp units? Do all 3 engines have the same part number for the injectors?

 

[psmart]

The part # in my ML is A613 070 05 87, which has been replaced by A613 070 08 87.
The injectors could be different on other models (makes complete sense) but I have yet been unable to find any data. Bosch dont reply to their emails!!!

The ebay advert claims that the injectors their selling are Genuine parts.

 

[Sprint'n'Go]

The part # in my ML is A613 070 05 87, which has been replaced by A613 070 08 87.
The injectors could be different on other models (makes complete sense) but I have yet been unable to find any data. Bosch dont reply to their emails!!!

I expect you will have to go and lean on someones part counter in a persistant manner to extract the information you want. I suspect Bosch are far to busy to bother themselves with a petty query like yours (unless you wanted 500 injectors of course!)

 

[psmart]

I expect you will have to go and lean on someones part counter in a persistant manner to extract the information you want. I suspect Bosch are far to busy to bother themselves with a petty query like yours (unless you wanted 500 injectors of course!)

Just go to the www.tdiclub.com forum, excellent resource and people are like this forum, over helpful and friendly.

Several options:
1. Use AMG Injectors (from the C30AMG rebored 2.7 - 3.0 engine).
2. Tweak the ECU with star diagnostics to advise the ECU that the flow rate of the existing injector is lower than it really is.
3. A guy in the US has all the correct info and can supply new Nozzles, uprated specifically for the engine!

The AMG injectors were used on a C200cdi with success!

Also, the link from above, http://cgi.ebay.de/Einspritzduese-In...cmdZ ViewItem, I contacted the guy, and he can supply ANY of the injectors, including the AMG part, all for EUR145 all in (approx 99.58 at current exchange rate).