E320 CDI Front Cat & EGR failure - thermostat problem?

Thriftwood

Active Member
Joined
Jun 13, 2008
Messages
26
Reaction score
1
Location
Bedfordshire
Your Mercedes
E350 All-Terrain 2017
Hi
My 2002 210 320CDI estate has done 115k miles
The MAF was recently replaced (approx 110k miles) with an original Mercedes part after suffering the usual “won’t rev above 3k or kick down” issues. This seemed to restore the car for a couple of weeks then the following occurred:-
Loss of power, black smoke when engine under sustained load (e.g. climbing long incline on motorway), seeming reluctance for gearbox to change down (actually, now that it is fixed, I think the gearbox was behaving correctly, there just wasn’t enough power to accelerate in the chosen gear). Garage replaced air filter (was above 70% red) but car no better eventually diagnosed a blocked front catalyst which had then damaged the EGR :( One new cat, EGR & a big bill later the performance is back to normal.
I have noticed that recently (last year approx) that the engine is not getting as hot as I remember. It used to sit about 80c, occasionally rising to 90+ if sitting in traffic on hot day. Now however it rarely rises above 65c and will only get to 80+ if sat idling on hot day. Now, not understanding how all the different bits interact, the thought crossed my mind that maybe if the engine was never reaching correct operating temperature, then the following may be happening:-
A. The front catalyst may not be reaching its optimal temperature either and that may have caused it to block.
B. The engine combustion may not be correct and creating more soot with the same consequence.
So very long winded message (sorry but was trying to make sure I didn’t miss any relevant detail) to ask the following questions:-
1. Does it sound like the thermostat is stuck open? (my garage says they have never seen one fail!)
2. If it is and the engine is never fully warming up, what impact will this have?
3. Could this have caused (contributed to) the front catalyst and subsequent EGR failure?
4. Any thoughts on what else I can do to prevent the cat blocking in future?
Thanks
Richard
 

Uncle Benz

Senior Member
Joined
Mar 31, 2006
Messages
4,325
Reaction score
3,774
Age
53
Location
West Sussex
Your Mercedes
Mainly Mercedes
Sounds very plausible to me. I think it has to be worth changing the stat to see.
 

rpe2

Senior Member
Joined
Sep 25, 2006
Messages
2,866
Reaction score
3
Age
47
Location
Silchester
Your Mercedes
His: 2018 E220 d; Hers: 2016 SMAX
A4. Take the car for a regular Italian tune-up.

Richard
 
OP
T

Thriftwood

Active Member
Joined
Jun 13, 2008
Messages
26
Reaction score
1
Location
Bedfordshire
Your Mercedes
E350 All-Terrain 2017
  • Thread Starter
  • Thread starter
  • #4
Thanks - I'll drag it to the dealer and try to convince them to replace it - any idea roughly how much it might be?
Richard
ps
Car gets reasonably regular Italian tune up - esp now it's running OK :)
 

Grumpy

Member
Joined
May 31, 2004
Messages
13
Reaction score
0
Location
Norwich
Vacuum Pump

I have an E320CDi with loss of power and will not rev above 3000 in 3rd. Mercedes say that possible, as there is a gearbox controller fault code, this might be causing "limp home". They say the controller needs replacing and have quoted over £1300!
I went to Mellenium Mercedes and he said it could be the EGR valve. I took this apart. cleaned it, and it was full of soot, resulting in a little improvement. I then "Teed" in a vacuum gauge into the line to the turbo waste gate and the EGR valve, and found no vacuum. I then put an oscilloscope on the supply to the vacuum pump and can see a PWM signal. I therefore think the vacuum pump is duff. I will get a replacement and see what happens. I will keep you informed.
 

star

Forum Supporter
Authorised Forum Supporter
Joined
Oct 6, 2004
Messages
6,266
Reaction score
1,960
Location
Reading
Your Mercedes
Smart + others :)
If the vacume pump is duff, then your servo/brakes wouldn't feel right, poss vac loss thru a leak in a pipe or egr or vac modulator valve or turbo waste gate actuator.
 

wireman

Senior Member
Joined
Sep 20, 2005
Messages
2,632
Reaction score
3
Location
lancashire
Your Mercedes
nice 201 2.5D 1993 & very nice 129 SL500 1994
A faulty egr can cause the cat to choke up, the purging cycle is activated on idle once the car has reached full temperature.
The rover diesel mob use a brush handle and hammer to clear the blockage and get a few more horse power into the bargain, this of course puts the emmissions up but the mot test does not seem to find it.

Do replace your thermostat or your engine will suffer from premature wear and tear, if you dont the cat will probably get clogged up again, about £25 for the new anti freeze and stat plus 1 hour.
 
OP
T

Thriftwood

Active Member
Joined
Jun 13, 2008
Messages
26
Reaction score
1
Location
Bedfordshire
Your Mercedes
E350 All-Terrain 2017
  • Thread Starter
  • Thread starter
  • #8
Thank you for the feedback.
I eventually managed to convince the dealer to replace the thermostat (it was stuck open as I suspected) and the car is back to running at 85c :) Interestingly (disturbingly?) they are of the opinion that the thermostat could not have caused any cat/EGR failure. If this is a known issue, then I would have hoped that the dealers would have been more on the ball. (though I guess they do get the benefit of a big repair when it all goes wrong - sorry being a cynic again) :wink:

Not sure if this is the right part of the forum to ask, but what is the purge cycle on the EGR and how does this affect the cat?

Richard
 

wireman

Senior Member
Joined
Sep 20, 2005
Messages
2,632
Reaction score
3
Location
lancashire
Your Mercedes
nice 201 2.5D 1993 & very nice 129 SL500 1994
The EGR is used to get the cat hot and hopefully burn up any sooty deposits trapped in it. On a diesel it is not possible to have extra fuel there all the time to run the cat as is done on petrol engines. Diesel cats differ greatly in how they work from petrol cats.
 
OP
T

Thriftwood

Active Member
Joined
Jun 13, 2008
Messages
26
Reaction score
1
Location
Bedfordshire
Your Mercedes
E350 All-Terrain 2017
  • Thread Starter
  • Thread starter
  • #10
Thanks :)
Does anyone know of a site/book that explains how all these various bits EGR, MAF, etc. interact - My curiousity is has been tweeked ;)
Richard
 

television

Always remembered RIP
Joined
Mar 14, 2005
Messages
164,073
Reaction score
377
Age
89
Location
Daventry
Your Mercedes
2002 SL500, 216 CL500, all fully loaded
Its well documented if you do a search

The MAF sets up the mixture by measuring the air temp and the engine has a temperature sensor that know how hot the engine is, between the 2 of them the mixture will always be correct whether hot or cold.

The next thing in line is the O2 sensor, this is a probe that sits in the exhaust system and measure the quality of the burnt gas,,if the engine is running too rich it will weaken the mixture to compensate and vice versa. Its is a device for the environment and it reduces the emissions. If they become coated or detect anything out of the ordinary it will put the engine warning lamp on as it has a stored middle of the road setting.

The last thing is the EGR valve, this is a vacuum operated valve that opens at cruising light throttle openings, and this is connected to the inlet of the engine where harmful gasses are returned. this valve can stick open and the spring can get weak due to the environment that it lives where the temperatures can get up to several hundred degrees. when stuck partly open the idle becomes rough and the engine could stall at idle.

See how the above compares with a search
 

stivesvelo

Senior Member
Joined
Mar 19, 2007
Messages
121
Reaction score
0
Location
CAMBS
Website
www.orientalexpression.co.uk
Your Mercedes
S210 E320 cdi estate
Running Temp

Interesting to hear that you are up and running at 85deg. Is that the correct temp, because mine (E320cdi w210) runs just below 80 and as the weather gets colder, this also sits lower (25 mile trip to work) & fuel consumption rises.

Should this be higher ? If so it sounds like a thermostat to me, how accessible is it?

Rob
 
OP
T

Thriftwood

Active Member
Joined
Jun 13, 2008
Messages
26
Reaction score
1
Location
Bedfordshire
Your Mercedes
E350 All-Terrain 2017
  • Thread Starter
  • Thread starter
  • #16
Thanks for the info Malcolm - I'd seen plenty of reports on symptoms of MAF failure, but not on how it & EGRs actually work. I will do some more searching through the forum - thanks again :)
Richard
 

stivesvelo

Senior Member
Joined
Mar 19, 2007
Messages
121
Reaction score
0
Location
CAMBS
Website
www.orientalexpression.co.uk
Your Mercedes
S210 E320 cdi estate
Just picked up the replacement thermostat today, you get the whole housing with thermostat built in + sensor as a unit along with gasket/seal.

Here's the page from the Russian site showing the assembly:

http://www.detali.ru/cat/oem_mb2.as...GA=722.626&CT=M&cat=65C&SID=20&SGR=015&SGN=01

Has anyone replaced this themself, because now that I look at it there is a machined socket on the underside into which a connector tube is fitted (77). How does this seal as there doesn't appear to be any mechanical fixing of the joining tube into it, is it an interference fit or does one use a sealing compound of some description. I don't want to get it off & find I need something else to complete the job.

Any info gladly received.

Rob
 
Last edited:

television

Always remembered RIP
Joined
Mar 14, 2005
Messages
164,073
Reaction score
377
Age
89
Location
Daventry
Your Mercedes
2002 SL500, 216 CL500, all fully loaded
Rubber seals / gaskets are often fitted dry, the others normally use a bit of hermatite red
 

John Kerr

Senior Member
Joined
Aug 3, 2006
Messages
206
Reaction score
1
Location
Nr Folkestone Kent
Your Mercedes
W209 CLK 220CDI Sport
Just picked up the replacement thermostat today, you get the whole housing with thermostat built in + sensor as a unit along with gasket/seal.

Here's the page from the Russian site showing the assembly:

http://www.detali.ru/cat/oem_mb2.as...GA=722.626&CT=M&cat=65C&SID=20&SGR=015&SGN=01

Has anyone replaced this themself, because now that I look at it there is a machined socket on the underside into which a connector tube is fitted (77). How does this seal as there doesn't appear to be any mechanical fixing of the joining tube into it, is it an interference fit or does one use a sealing compound of some description. I don't want to get it off & find I need something else to complete the job.

Any info gladly received.

Rob

Did mine on a 220CDI the little tube is an interference fit.
 

wireman

Senior Member
Joined
Sep 20, 2005
Messages
2,632
Reaction score
3
Location
lancashire
Your Mercedes
nice 201 2.5D 1993 & very nice 129 SL500 1994
If you are mad keen on knowing how various engine management components work the Bosch technical handbooks are an absolute treasure trove of detailed information, and its right from the horses mouth. They are a tad pricy, try amazon.
 
Top Bottom