Electric cars

[harrye500]

I'm no expert in any way, but surely hydrogen fuel would have been a better way forward? Also, the existing forecourt system worldwide could have been adapted for the technology! Barmey, the whole thing!

 

[eman]

I asked the question last week as to why if F1 can run engine’s on bio fuel to be green in 2026 why arnt car manufacturers doing the same. And was told there is 1 only biofuel garage in the country and its £12 a litre

 

[bembo449]

I'm no expert in any way, but surely hydrogen fuel would have been a better way forward? Also, the existing forecourt system worldwide could have been adapted for the technology! Barmey, the whole thing!

i was told that hydrogen is far too difficult to store at as many locations as it would require and the general public could not be trusted to use it safely

 

[Judwin]

Hydrogen isn't a good choice - it has a low volumetric energy density. It's true that there is roughly 3 times as much energy in 1Kg of Hydrogen as there is in 1kg of Petrol. The problem is that whilst 1Kg of Petrol occupies about 1.2L of space, 1Kg of Hydrogen occupies 11m^3 (= 11,000L). So you have to compress it to get it down to a usable volume. You end up with a pressure tank that weighs more than 10 times the mass of the hydrogen that it contains, with the gas inside stored at 300-700 bar. A typical car tyre is only inflated to between 2 (29psi) and 2.5(36psi) bar, so we're talking about more than 100 times the pressure of air inside a car tyre.

Hydrogen also has a very small molecule size, which means it can leak through gaps that larger molecules like Petrol or Natural gas cannot. That means it get adsorbed into the skin of the tank itself, and in some cases it can passing directly through the skin of metal pipes and tanks. It also causes Hydrogen embrittlement, making the tank itself fragile, and frankly dangerous.

All this makes it difficult to transport safely and keep contained in any tanks.

 

[harrye500]

I take it all back Judwin . Good and scientific explanation, makes sense. Electric it is, then! Bembos comment also makes sense, us Joe Public could never be trusted not to blow us all to smithereens simply filling up!

 

[SL63 Mark]

I told a chemistry boffin about this, and he said the smart money/research is on using hydogen compounds, not on using hydrogen gas, which is difficult for all the reasons above. I wish I could remember what he said, but he lost me half way through. My Chemistry education stopped in the third form.

 

[harrye500]

Yes, ditto all very scientific. Interesting though, be interesting to see how it goes but no doubt i'll be in the ground by then. I shall enjoy my silly V8 FTB then and the 220, until the Adblue tank gives up!!

 

[Judwin]

I told a chemistry boffin about this, and he said the smart money/research is on using hydogen compounds, not on using hydrogen gas, which is difficult for all the reasons above. I wish I could remember what he said, but he lost me half way through. My Chemistry education stopped in the third form.

Yes, Hydrogen compounds - like Natural Gas (CH4) or Benzine (C6H6).

Trouble is, burning stuff containing carbon produces Carbon Dioxide, which is what we're supposed to be reducing. So we need a compound that doesn't contain carbon, is easy to make and transport, and has high energy content. Unicorn tears fit the bill, but supplies of Unicorns are limited.

 

[00slk]

There's not substitute for petrol!!
In the long run it's cheaper. Looked into this and if I live for 40 more years then maybe then I start to get my money back on EV but I won't be here in 40 years so I'll enjoy my V8 gas gussling lovely sounding petrol driven automobile for share enjoyment and nobody can stop me

 

[Frontstep]

All the while Toyota develop their Mirai.

Yes it ain't perfect but you can buy one,
admittedly for a crazy amount more than some Americans but whats new about that?

The 2021 Toyota Mirai is insanely cheap after tax rebates and $20,000 incentive - Autoblog

There is a $20,000 incentive for the 2021 Toyota Mirai. When added to $12,500 worth of tax rebates, the starting price is $17,995. And you get free hydrogen.

www.autoblog.com

 

[Craiglxviii]

There's not substitute for petrol!!
In the long run it's cheaper. Looked into this and if I live for 40 more years then maybe then I start to get my money back on EV but I won't be here in 40 years so I'll enjoy my V8 gas gussling lovely sounding petrol driven automobile for share enjoyment and nobody can stop me

There <is>, one can run a diesel engine in “reverse” using liquefied gas. There was an engine programme running a few years ago that a good buddy of mine was involved in, the trouble is that the energy input cost to liquefy the gas is pretty much equal to the output from regasifying it in the engine cycle. So the whole programme collapsed as it didn’t scale.

 

[malcolm E53 AMG]

The only way EVs are cost effective is to have a house roof full of solar panels and a battery pack so you are £15K in already before you buy that very expensive EV £50K+ my ‘calculation’ is that you need to cover mega mileage for it all this to make sense in the 10 year car battery pack cycle. My SIL has a friend who is a high end kitchen salesman who does 1000 miles a week travelling to customers and runs a high end MB SUV EV now that makes sense to me

 

[00slk]

There <is>, one can run a diesel engine in “reverse” using liquefied gas. There was an engine programme running a few years ago that a good buddy of mine was involved in, the trouble is that the energy input cost to liquefy the gas is pretty much equal to the output from regasifying it in the engine cycle. So the whole programme collapsed as it didn’t scale.

Well, I rest my case

 

[bembo449]

I told a chemistry boffin about this, and he said the smart money/research is on using hydogen compounds, not on using hydrogen gas, which is difficult for all the reasons above. I wish I could remember what he said, but he lost me half way through. My Chemistry education stopped in the third form.

best sleep ever ?? lol

 

[SL63 Mark]

best sleep ever ?? lol

It was a (very) long drive up the M5 to Manchester.

I had to tell him I had no idea what he was talking about.

Sounded interesting though. It wasn't Hydrogen compounds in the sense of hydrocarbons, it was a bit more interesting than that. Rare earths or something.

Apparently he had been reading up about it.

 

[ajlsl600]

i was told that hydrogen is far too difficult to store at as many locations as it would require and the general public could not be trusted to use it safely

That will change I certain they are comming as soon as state wring enough out of motoring public on duracels

 

[Frontstep]

A Mirai longer term test is encouraging but and I could probably say Butt big time this was in Sunny Los Angeles where things are different and the car is a bargain.
Running one tup north in the UK is a whole different kettle of seafood.

2021 Toyota Mirai Long-Term Test Update: What Is This Soft Car Doing To Us?

Our first month with the Mirai saw us getting used to hydrogen life.

www.motortrend.com

The map doesn't fill one with confidence never mind the much much higher prices.

https://www.glpautogas.info/data/hydrogen-stations-map-united-kingdom.html

 

[Larkone]

Still the elephant in the room is the (lack of) electricity infrastructure. Combine EVs with ASHP that we are being encouraged to fit instead of fossil fuel boilers and very quickly the infrastructure is overloaded and will be unable to support everyone's needs. It is not just the power cables but also the sub stations, transformers etc. What we are not seeing is any plan to tackle this. In my road the poles already carry 2 x 415V cables and phone lines for the village and that is the max capacity for the poles because of weight according to UK Power. There is not the physical capacity for everyone in the village to have ASHPs, let alone 7kW chargers. I was told that in my road of 10 houses there is only spare capacity for about 3 x 7kW chargers on the existing supply, that equates to about 5/6 ASHPs and it will be first come first served and with no plan for any upgrade it could be some years before there is adequate capacity for all houses to go EV/ASHP.

 

[malcolm E53 AMG]

Funny how politicians have little capacity for memory and never admit to being wrong. As the country is now entering recession and an energy crisis both the Tories and Labour are culpable due to of lack of energy security and policy. Thatcher started the rot with the privatisation of the CEGB/BG many at the time said it was a step too far and how right they were since the sell off most of the natural gas the UK had has been burnt to produce cheap electricity and the nuclear industry decimated we now rely on EDF to manage what’s left of it. Major’s government in the 90s and Blair’s in the 00s missed the opportunity to build a fleet of PWRs all the infrastructure and skills were there to do it but now alas they are long gone. Now the hue and cry in Westminster is to build more nuclear stations well it won’t be UK PLC doing it we will have to sub that out abroad all we have left is the small reactors RR produce for propulsion of nuclear submarines. I could go on and on but rant over.

 

[A.J.]

A car transporter fire involving seven electric vehicles has shut part of the M1. The blaze broke out at 13:40 GMT on Monday and carriageways between junctions 26 and 27 southbound were closed. No injuries were reported and no other vehicles were involved, Nottinghamshire Fire and Rescue Service said.