Electric Vehicles

[joderest]

Just thought i would start a post on the above.
I suppose at some point i will have to invest in one of these, but a thought springs to mind.
What are the tow'ers going to do ?
Is there a suitably large enough vehicle that is electric that can tow a caravan ?
I ask because, my wife tows a horse trailer, we always have a vehicle that can tow over three tons, as stops the "tail wagging the dog "syndrome. I suppose we could get away with about 2.8 tons, but i like the safety margin.
So, the ML270 copes very, very well, but what if we had to have an electric vehicle because we are told to, what, if any, are good at towing and 4 wheel drive?
How long would the batteries last towing a big trailer and two horses, what would be the range.

Questions i have not seen come to light yet.

Thoughts anyone ?

 

[sweeper]

Great question, one of many surrounding EV’s, have no fear someone will make one big enough at a price but the huge issue is range and charge point access, I’m hoping to stay with old cars as long as possible to avoid full EV as long as possible, I often drive 400+ miles in a day, how would I do that in full EV, we have 4 cars in the household how would we charge them all, I’ve even looked at getting three phase in the house for a fast charger or two, it’s going to be a massive change for some.
I, like many others, enjoy road trips across into Europe, how hard will that be with full EV?

 

[Blobcat]

You’ll no doubt be able to get a trailer that is just a large battery that you can tow… or perhaps tow a diesel genny and bowser. No range issues then….

Not really helping am I…

 

[joderest]

Blobcat, in a word, NO.

We could change the wifes mini for an EV, as she does about 45 miles a day.
We could change the little Aygo for an EV, i do about 50 miles a day.

But the question is, what the hell would i replace the ML with that could do the same job ?
I rather hope that in my lifetime i will not have to, but will the "powers that be" make owning a large diesel vehicle cost prohibited ?

 

[LostKiwi]

Tesla Model X can tow 2250kg (same as an R class). That's about the best so far. As demand becomes apparent I'm sure others will follow with 3500kg towing limits (I'd expect Land Rover to fill this gap).

Travelling across Europe is an interesting one.
It depends entirely on your cars charging rate.
As an exercise I tried calculating the time difference between our petrol E class and a Tesla P85D to get from Northamptonshire to Bordeaux. The difference was 1 hour with 4 x 30 minute top-up charges en route.

That said we could save 25 minutes by charging at Folkestone before getting on Eurotunnel 8nstead of charging at Calais.

Top up charges would therefore be Folkestone, Rouen, Le Mans and Poitiers. This normally takes us 12 hours in the E class with a fuel stop at Rouen.
However for us we 5ake 3 dogs and stop 4 times en route to walk them so coinciding these with top ups would mean there would be little if any difference in reality.

Am I tempted to get a used P85? Definitely.... But what kills it for me is lack of load space (we use an estate) and used prices (that being said get one privately and you may be able to transfer the free supercharger for life so fuel costs become near zero).

Given a Model X weighs more than an ML I'd be surprised if the tail would wag the dog.

 

[joderest]

Tesla, did any one else here about the incident in America, where a tesla blew itself in half ? Something to do with the batteries in the floor ?
At least a Mercedes just stops !!!!!

 

[Judwin]

For almost all electric cars, it takes much longer to charge from 80% upwards than it does to get to 80%. The 'fastest' way is to plan to stop somewhere around 10% charge, and fill up to 80%. This can be done in 30 mins where the charger can supply enough juice, but the upshot is that your range is only ever going to be 70% of the advertised range on a single charge. However if you are planning on stopping overnight somewhere then you can charge up to 100% overnight.

For me, it seems that a typical EV stint is 2h to 2h30 (200-250 miles), followed by a 30+ minute charge. That means you're stopped for 15-20% of the time for charging. In a fossil fuelled car you can probably expect to do 400-600miles on a tank (5-8 hours), and a fuel stop can be less than 10 minutes.

What then matters is if you can overlap the charging with doing something else useful at the same time. Getting something to eat, or doing some shopping for instance. If you can do that then the time spent charging is 'free'. However, once the number of stops goes beyond 3 or 4 then I fail to see how anyone can eat that much food every 3 hours?

It crops up reasonably frequently on the skiing forums. I can (and do) drive London to the French alps in less than 13 hours, including 2 one hour stops - one for food, one for shopping. The EV drivers seem to take 15-17 hours on the road, including 5 or 6 charging stops.

You can experiment with a route planner here https://abetterrouteplanner.com. You also need to realise that not all chargers are capable of charging at the fastest rates; the slow ones will take several hours to get you from 10% to 80%, and the fast ones often charge a premium for electricity (as much as 75p per Kw in the UK). And the other fly in the ointment which is not currently a problem (due to the low number of EV's on the road) is that if you turn up at a busy station on a Bank Holiday Monday to find all the charging stations full, you could be in for a long wait.

 

[LostKiwi]

For almost all electric cars, it takes much longer to charge from 80% upwards than it does to get to 80%. The 'fastest' way is to plan to stop somewhere around 10% charge, and fill up to 80%. This can be done in 30 mins where the charger can supply enough juice, but the upshot is that your range is only ever going to be 70% of the advertised range on a single charge. However if you are planning on stopping overnight somewhere then you can charge up to 100% overnight.

For me, it seems that a typical EV stint is 2h to 2h30 (200-250 miles), followed by a 30+ minute charge. That means you're stopped for 15-20% of the time for charging. In a fossil fuelled car you can probably expect to do 400-600miles on a tank (5-8 hours), and a fuel stop can be less than 10 minutes.

What then matters is if you can overlap the charging with doing something else useful at the same time. Getting something to eat, or doing some shopping for instance. If you can do that then the time spent charging is 'free'. However, once the number of stops goes beyond 3 or 4 then I fail to see how anyone can eat that much food every 3 hours?

It crops up reasonably frequently on the skiing forums. I can (and do) drive London to the French alps in less than 13 hours, including 2 one hour stops - one for food, one for shopping. The EV drivers seem to take 15-17 hours on the road, including 5 or 6 charging stops.

You can experiment with a route planner here https://abetterrouteplanner.com. You also need to realise that not all chargers are capable of charging at the fastest rates; the slow ones will take several hours to get you from 10% to 80%, and the fast ones often charge a premium for electricity (as much as 75p per Kw in the UK). And the other fly in the ointment which is not currently a problem (due to the low number of EV's on the road) is that if you turn up at a busy station on a Bank Holiday Monday to find all the charging stations full, you could be in for a long wait.

Tesla route planner says 13 hours 2 minutes London to Chamonix

Go Anywhere | Tesla

Stay charged anywhere you go, with access to our global charging networks. Explore a route and we’ll find the best locations to keep you charged along the way and upon arrival.

www.tesla.com

 

[curious]

Guy Martin did a telly programme (C4) recently on building the worlds fastest electric car. In addition to that, during the programme he tried to go to John O'Groats and back from Grimsby in an electric Hyundai. He tried to do a round trip of 1100 miles in less than 24 hours.
If I remember correctly, he found half the charging staions out of use, some were extrmely expensive, some were very slow and, it ended up taking longer and costing more in fuel than if he'd done the journey in his diesel Transit.

They're not there yet and, batteries are not the way forward with all this!

 

[Judwin]

Tesla route planner says 13 hours 2 minutes London to Chamonix

Go Anywhere | Tesla

Stay charged anywhere you go, with access to our global charging networks. Explore a route and we’ll find the best locations to keep you charged along the way and upon arrival.

www.tesla.com

It says Tignes/ValDiz is 15h, with 3 stops of between 35 and 45 minutes. That's also via Paris which no-one in their right minds would do. Via Reims it's 2h charging, but 5 stops, the longest of which is 35mins.

As I say, we typically allow 11h driving, one hour on the chunnel, and two one hour stops. Start out at 4am GMT, 6:20am chunnel, Lunch (and fuel) at the metal chicken, Vino and Fromage shopping at Chambery, and into resort for 7pm CET.

Tesla is also a special/best case, because it's charging infrastructure is all high speed. Try it with (for example) a Jaguar iPace. aBetterrouteplanner says London to Chamonix is 13h45, made up of 10h42 driving, and 6 stops totalling 3h3 charging. London to Tignes is 15h21 total, 12h4 driving and 7 stops totaling 3h17 charging.

I don't see any way around the fact that on a long trip, you've got to allow 20% extra time over what would required for a dead dinosaur fuelled car to allow for charging.

 

[LostKiwi]

For those who are anti EV how long ago was it that battery drills were a toy and you had to have a mains one to do any work.
I doubt there is anyone on here who doesn't do 90% of their DIY with battery power tools these days.
Likewise rattle guns. There are more than a few of us with battery rattle guns who use them for undoing wheel nuts and only 5 years ago that would have been unthinkable.

 

[Blobcat]

For those who are anti EV how long ago was it that battery drills were a toy and you had to have a mains one to do any work.
I doubt there is anyone on here who doesn't do 90% of their DIY with battery power tools these days.
Likewise rattle guns. There are more than a few of us with battery rattle guns who use them for undoing wheel nuts and only 5 years ago that would have been unthinkable.

Only issue with battery drills is that they don’t last
If you can still get the batteries you’re in luck, if not the drill is scrap after only a few years

 

[LostKiwi]

It says Tignes/ValDiz is 15h, with 3 stops of between 35 and 45 minutes. That's also via Paris which no-one in their right minds would do. Via Reims it's 2h charging, but 5 stops, the longest of which is 35mins.

As I say, we typically allow 11h driving, one hour on the chunnel, and two one hour stops. Start out at 4am GMT, 6:20am chunnel, Lunch (and fuel) at the metal chicken, Vino and Fromage shopping at Chambery, and into resort for 7pm CET.

Tesla is also a special/best case, because it's charging infrastructure is all high speed. Try it with (for example) a Jaguar iPace. aBetterrouteplanner says London to Chamonix is 13h45, made up of 10h42 driving, and 6 stops totalling 3h3 charging. London to Tignes is 15h21 total, 12h4 driving and 7 stops totaling 3h17 charging.

I don't see any way around the fact that on a long trip, you've got to allow 20% extra time over what would required for a dead dinosaur fuelled car to allow for charging.

Yes Tesla are a slightly special case but are a good indication of how it can be with the right infrastructure. Some of the long range EVs are now start to knock in the door of 500 miles range. The EQS for example at 485 miles or EQE at 475.

If they can get graphene batteries sorted not only will range improve but charge times will shorten and weight go down. Graphene can store 1000W per kg compared to LiON at 175W. Graphene can also be made into body panels.

 

[00slk]

Only issue with battery drills is that they don’t last
If you can still get the batteries you’re in luck, if not the drill is scrap after only a few years

Loads for sale on fb.......with batteries????
My rattle gun is air operated.

 

[Judwin]

Yes Tesla are a slightly special case but are a good indication of how it can be with the right infrastructure. Some of the long range EVs are now start to knock in the door of 500 miles range. The EQS for example at 485 miles or EQE at 475.

If they can get graphene batteries sorted not only will range improve but charge times will shorten and weight go down. Graphene can store 1000W per kg compared to LiON at 175W. Graphene can also be made into body panels.

But, you get back to the fact that the most efficient charging time is between 10%-80%, so a car advertised with a 500 mile range realistically only has a 350+ mile range between charges on a long trip. The last 20% of charge will double the total charging time. 3 charges of 10%-80% at 350miles a time will be quicker than 2 charges of 10%-100% for the same distance covered.

And I'm not convinced the weight of the batteries is a significant factor any more. Doesn't really matter if the battery is the size of a dustbin, or a sugar cube. What matters is how quickly you can get the energy into the battery, It's always going to take 50% longer to charge a 100KWh battery as it does to charge a 66KWh battery - all other things being equal (which I accept they probably aren't but first order approximation).

 

[davidsl500]

Only issue with battery drills is that they don’t last
If you can still get the batteries you’re in luck, if not the drill is scrap after only a few years

Chucked my JCB drill, pristine condition as the battery packs were NA.

 

[Frontstep]

I think were getting to, chucked my Nissan Leaf as the batteries were knackered.

Still quite a few Mercedes and others wouldn't stand the price of a new engine.

 

[LostKiwi]

But, you get back to the fact that the most efficient charging time is between 10%-80%, so a car advertised with a 500 mile range realistically only has a 350+ mile range between charges on a long trip. The last 20% of charge will double the total charging time. 3 charges of 10%-80% at 350miles a time will be quicker than 2 charges of 10%-100% for the same distance covered.

And I'm not convinced the weight of the batteries is a significant factor any more. Doesn't really matter if the battery is the size of a dustbin, or a sugar cube. What matters is how quickly you can get the energy into the battery, It's always going to take 50% longer to charge a 100KWh battery as it does to charge a 66KWh battery - all other things being equal (which I accept they probably aren't but first order approximation)

I suggest you take a look at graphene batteries.
They change the game significantly.
Linear charge rates.
Higher power density.
Faster charge rates.
Better recharge cycle lifespan.
Lighter.
Can be made into vehicle parts (panels for example).

Whilst not available in vehicles yet it's a matter of time as they address many 9f the issues you raise.

Let's not forget that during the first 20 years of ICE vehicles they had challenges. The first long journey by car involved stopping at pharmacies to buy fuel whenever it could be found.

Also in that period people complained about the noise/smell/unreliability/pretty much everything else about ICE cars and how impractical they were.
What we see is history repeating itself.

 

[Taffy7hfa]

I honestly think most people don't care what powers their personal transport as long it does what they need it to do and represents value for money.
Apparently In 1916 a worker in Henry Fords factory (or anyone else) could buy a Ford Model T for around a months salary or about $345, that's about $8.200 in today's money.
For me EV's look very expensive for what they are and what they can do.
Think I'll wait for Hydrogen

 

[LostKiwi]

Think I'll wait for Hydrogen

I think it will be a long wait.