Is a Merc better built than a Vauxhall ? Discuss..

[sheriff]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Parrot of Doom
You can't compare a very very simple car like a 1983 Cavalier to a relatively modern premium car like a W210. You might as well compare a Commodore VIC20 to a Pentium PC.

Why not, the same engineering principles apply ? After all, if you pay a price premium for a "better engineered" car, would it not be a fair assumtion that it should be inherently more reliable than a "cheaply built" hatch ? I've only just bought into the Mercedes family after many years of owning a lot of these "very simple" reliable cars, and after reading quite a few posts on here, I'm wondering if I've done the right thing !

 

[Blobcat]

A company Vauxhall Vectra I had was off the road for 18 weeks (Before it was 18 months old) and went back to Vauxhall at Luton twice because it hesitated around 3,000 revs. The injector run back tubes would fail every 24 months allowing air into the fuel system so the car wouldn't start. When the lights fail behind the mileage reading it is ~4 hr job to strip out the dash. When the lights fail in the switches the complete switch had to be replaced. The keys would lose sync with the alarm if not used for more than a couple of days. The glue holding the strengthening bars in the roof failed so the roof rattled like mad.

If you have the opportunity to take your Mercedes apart even small bits you will be impressed with the engineering that went into the design and manufacture.

In work there are quite a few vauxhalls in use, astra cars & vans and vectras. When they reach ~80K miles and 3 yrs old they are finished, they are very much into the end of life wear out part of the bathtub curve. My Mercedes has ~119K miles and is 6 yrs old and is running better than when I bought it.

 

[Ultymate]

I recently scrapped a Vauxhall Carlton Estate with 160K+ miles on the clock and was still mechanically sound having had no major calamaties, the old rust cancer having got hold of the rear chassis legs. As a footnoteb the Carltons were built in Germany

 

[SLinKyjoe]

Mercedes spend more money on development than any other manufacturers and massivly more than GM for its Vauxhall brand. The engineering is more detailed and the quality of fitments is better. So yes Mercedes are better than Vuaxhalls.

However, a number of years ago, Mercedes lowered the level of investment in R&D and sourced lower quality parts, most of which was desgined to give a greater return on the cars thus helping the coffers. They also ramped up production and expanded the appeal of the cars to reach a greater customer base, this reduced the build quality and attention to details levels, but also brought the cars into price brackets for more motorists.

At the same Time Ford, Vauxhall and others were upping quality, build and suchlike to meet VW standards. This made them closer to Mercedes as Mercedes had gone down somewhat. It is this that tends to make people think Mercedes are not as good.

Some have reliablity issues and rust, and quite often the customer service is appalling, but often no worse than others and in some cases a damn sight better even when its bad.

To put it in a nutshell, They took the eye off the ball and others are almost as good now. But take and Audi, BMW and Mercdedes for a test drive, then go in a vauxhall straight afterwards. The vauxhall will be good, but you will easily see the step up with premium brands. its just not as bigger gap as it was.

Mind you, vauxhalls have had strong generally long lasting engines for years.

New Mercedes are not yet up to the standards of older variants of mercedes.

Vauxhalls are massivly better then vauxhalls of old.

 

[BarryG]

From Fridays Daily Mirror.
Home Office table of Top !0 Stolen cars

10/Ford Fiesta Mark 1 2 and 3
9 /Montego
8 /Maestro
7 /Rover Metro
6 /Orion
5 /Vauxhall Nova
4 /Austin Metro
3 /Escort mark3
2 /Vauxhall Astra

Most stolen

1 /Vauxhall Belmont

 

[jberks]

What is quality and what is 'well built'?
We had a Cavalier diesel - used as a taxi by me and my dad for a number of years, then as a private car for a long while after. Last seen, it had over 250k on the clock and was going strong. So, reliable, certainly. High quality and well built? - maybe not. It always rattled from new, the seat snapped a couple of times, the trim had seen better days, even after 75k, but she still started first flick of the key. However, she didn't compare in ride, comfort or safety to my C class of a similar vintage. The plastic door handles were scratched to hell and always felt cheap, but to be fair, they are still working fine today.

I went out in a new Mondeo recently. A fine car...but.... It didn't have anything like the feel of solidity and luxury that my E class has. The ride wasn't in the league. I could go on. Fair enough really, it costs 1/3 as much, but to some extent, that's what that 2/3 is about. Open the bonnet and everything is sealed and protected. The bonnet itself has 2 catches. The technology involved, the way circuits switch in and out on their own, the can bus etc etc. Its all about 'quality', but when such things are involved, sometimes quality steps away from reliability.

Most merc issues are down to the electronics as they are often just too damn clever. Simpler and hence lower quality machines may be more reliable as a result. Remember, few mercs die due to mechanical issues these days (or previously) but a simple thing like the £10 wire in the MAS or 10p worth of solder in the OVP can cause it to go haywire. The pistons and crank at 100k are as good as new. The 5 bolts instead of 4 to hold the wheels on do their job just fine and the over specced brakes will stop you perfectly after 200k, but a dodgy sensor can still leave it on the hard shoulder.

So, what is quality?
All I can say is that my first Merc was a 1995 C class. I've had a notorious 2000 E and a post 04 E and aside from a key failure on my C at under 3 years old (and built during the good times), I've never been stranded. Sure I've had the odd niggle, but nothing that would give me a moments doubt if someone asked me to do a 1000 mile trip.
So, IMO they are excellent, despite the odd hickup.

 

[turnipsock]

I've got a Vectra as a company car, I only drive it for work even though I have the use of it all the time.

At the weekends I am currently using my 230TE, which will be 20 years old in a few days (if you apply the race horse principle).

I may be talking about having the last decent Merc but Vauxhall are still 20 years behind.

I still can't work the Vauxhall indicators, even though I know they are on the wrong side.

 

[hawk20]

Luxury is not just about reliability though Mercedes are way ahead of Vauxhall on that score in the J.D. Power survey.

Luxury cars begin with front engine and rear wheel drive. Ask Mercedes, BMW, Jaguar, Aston Martin, Rolls Royce and Bentley. Why? Partly it is balance. The perfect 50/50 front to rear weight distribution is difficult/impossible with front engine, front gearbox and front steering. (I am ignoring 4WD).

Second, if you enter a corner too fast, the natural and safe tendency is to take your foot off the accelerator and slow down. With RWD that works fine and helps keep control of the back end. With FWD you have to do the reverse and accelerate to pull the back end into line. Not ideal. So all the top makes are RWD. So are all top sports cars. Vauxhall are not.

Next, legroom and general size and space. Even the smallest Mercedes, the A class, has more front legroom than any Vauxhall I have ever sat in. The E class is bigger than any Vauxhall (or Ford nowadays), the S class even bigger. Big luxury cars are not made by Vauxhall any more.

Next, power. Mercedes make lots of 2, 3, 4, 5 and 6 litre variants. Vauxhall don't aim at those sectors. Mercedes also offer a large range of truly amazing diesels. My over 2 ton S320cdi does 0-62 in 7.6 seconds, has a top speed of 150 yet has a combined fuel consumption of 35 mpg. AND it has less CO2 emissions than most 2 litre petrol engines. Amazing motor.

Ride: - Nothing but nothing equals the ride of a Mercedes so long as you don't spoil it by choosing oversize wheels, or sport suspension. Almost every major motoring magazine agrees on that. BMW are hard and Audi are awful. Ride in a Mercedes for 200 miles and you arrive fresh (especially E class and above). I used to have to do mega miles and then do a long day's work after arriving. Nothing beats a Mercedes for that. This year I drove to the South of France from Lymington, via Dover, about 850 miles in one day.

Automatic: - Luxury cars almost always have auto boxes. Mercedes produce autos which in my book have no equal. No other manufacturer has perfected the auto like Merecedes. Not just because it is smooth and so on. BUT UNIQUELY Mercedes get almost identical performance from the Automatics as from the manuals. And very close on fuel economy too. Even on smaller cars: - check the B class 200cdi on the Merc website (0-62 in 9.6 seconds for the auto, a tad quicker than the manual). Amazing. Lovely. The luxury of an auto with no loss of performance.

Safety: - Mercedes record is legendary from crumple zones to seat belts to Electronic stability programmes. Fit all cars with ESP like Mercedes and there would be 40% less accidents said the head of NCAP. Safest car in America: the E class. Safest large luxury saloon:- the S class. Safest small saloon in Europe (NCAP): the A class. Safest family car (NCAP): - the B class.

I could go on but those who come to the forum to depress others will rant forever if I say more. Great cars. Enjoy.

 

[television]

Its like trying to compare the picture of a 1000-I contrast ratio on a goodmans plasma TV to that of a 11.000 -1 on a Top brand.

they all have a picture but, if you cant see the difference, there is not much point in discussing it.

Same with a car, if you cant tell the difference in your MB compared to the Vauxhall, thats sad and a waste of time.

Malcolm

 

[hexflyer]

Did well over 300,000 miles in my vauxhall carlton 2200CDI, the only reason it died is the rad got shot and i cooked the engine up melting the pistons!,

daft thing is i had a recon' rad in the boot! but never got time to fit it! (was a chauffeur at the time) really impressive car, shame the last incarnation of the carlton wan't as good as the previous 2!

 

[Schtum]

Vauxhall The last decent Vauxhall was the Viva.

I switched from a MK3 Mondeo and while it was a faithful, good servant and would crack 130! I wouldn't go back. :mrgreen:

 

[Blobcat]

Vauxhall The last decent Vauxhall was the Viva.

Have you been listening to the Macc Lads?

 

[malcolm E53 AMG]

Gave a couple of guys at work a lift on separate occassions recently.

Lift 1 said:
"Doesn't the star on the bonnet irritate you when driving" (no other comment).

Lift 2 said:
"Isn't the gearbox change smooth" (no other comment).

I rest my case!

 

[BarryG]

Gave a couple of guys at work a lift on separate occassions recently.

Lift 1 said:
"Doesn't the star on the bonnet irritate you when driving" (no other comment).

Lift 2 said:
"Isn't the gearbox change smooth" (no other comment).

I rest my case!

The star also comes in handy for lining yourself up with the speed "Cushions" they seem to be filling Sunderland with at the moment.
Is it just me or does going faster over them seem to cause less trauma to the car?

Barry

 

[robparker]

my brother has a vauxhall astra the same age as my 230ce (1990) mine has 170k his has 130kish. we have owned for about 2 years each, i have spent probbaly £1,500 on the car in that time, he has spent probably about £600. his has never broken down, mine has twice, but, its not the fault of mercedes, it was the aftermarket LPG system blowing off vacuum pipes twice (repair cost nothing)
the bits that puts the merc ahead are:
his car looks like a pile of crap, mine has a timeless elegant design.
after 130miles in his car i cant walk as my back hurts so much, in mine its fresh after a 4 hour trip.
mine has much more space
mine doesnt rattle like his
the interiour with its leather and wood is a nice environment to ride in unlike his super cheap plastic
mine has a nice smooth autobox, his iss a cliunky manual
everthing on his is manual (less repairs, but less convinence)
i have a sense of pride about my car, he doesnt
lastly i could sell mine for £1,500+ his is worth next to nothing

i wouldnt swap

 

[42847]

merc verses cavalier

my husband does 300 miles daily his last 2 cars were cavalier 1.8 petrols he ran them both to 403000 and 405000 miles never having a clutch or headgasket or any major trouble he now has a 2001 old shape mondeo 1.8 petrol...will that do 400,000 miles? both my mercs are starship mileage with no trouble....whats the story?

 

[Alfie]

Luxury is not just about reliability though Mercedes are way ahead of Vauxhall on that score in the J.D. Power survey.

Luxury cars begin with front engine and rear wheel drive. Ask Mercedes, BMW, Jaguar, Aston Martin, Rolls Royce and Bentley. Why? Partly it is balance. The perfect 50/50 front to rear weight distribution is difficult/impossible with front engine, front gearbox and front steering. (I am ignoring 4WD).

Second, if you enter a corner too fast, the natural and safe tendency is to take your foot off the accelerator and slow down. With RWD that works fine and helps keep control of the back end. With FWD you have to do the reverse and accelerate to pull the back end into line. Not ideal. So all the top makes are RWD. So are all top sports cars. Vauxhall are not.

Next, legroom and general size and space. Even the smallest Mercedes, the A class, has more front legroom than any Vauxhall I have ever sat in. The E class is bigger than any Vauxhall (or Ford nowadays), the S class even bigger. Big luxury cars are not made by Vauxhall any more.

Next, power. Mercedes make lots of 2, 3, 4, 5 and 6 litre variants. Vauxhall don't aim at those sectors. Mercedes also offer a large range of truly amazing diesels. My over 2 ton S320cdi does 0-62 in 7.6 seconds, has a top speed of 150 yet has a combined fuel consumption of 35 mpg. AND it has less CO2 emissions than most 2 litre petrol engines. Amazing motor.

Ride: - Nothing but nothing equals the ride of a Mercedes so long as you don't spoil it by choosing oversize wheels, or sport suspension. Almost every major motoring magazine agrees on that. BMW are hard and Audi are awful. Ride in a Mercedes for 200 miles and you arrive fresh (especially E class and above). I used to have to do mega miles and then do a long day's work after arriving. Nothing beats a Mercedes for that. This year I drove to the South of France from Lymington, via Dover, about 850 miles in one day.

Automatic: - Luxury cars almost always have auto boxes. Mercedes produce autos which in my book have no equal. No other manufacturer has perfected the auto like Merecedes. Not just because it is smooth and so on. BUT UNIQUELY Mercedes get almost identical performance from the Automatics as from the manuals. And very close on fuel economy too. Even on smaller cars: - check the B class 200cdi on the Merc website (0-62 in 9.6 seconds for the auto, a tad quicker than the manual). Amazing. Lovely. The luxury of an auto with no loss of performance.

Safety: - Mercedes record is legendary from crumple zones to seat belts to Electronic stability programmes. Fit all cars with ESP like Mercedes and there would be 40% less accidents said the head of NCAP. Safest car in America: the E class. Safest large luxury saloon:- the S class. Safest small saloon in Europe (NCAP): the A class. Safest family car (NCAP): - the B class.

I could go on but those who come to the forum to depress others will rant forever if I say more. Great cars. Enjoy.

Totally agree. Well said.

Vauxhall make crap cars in my opinion. I've yet to ever ride in a comfortable one. that said, I'd rather a Vauxhall over a Ford.

Mercedes make probably the finest cars in the world. Very few except perhaps the Japanese or BMW / Audi / VW come close for quality.

 

[johnmc]

Hi,
The difference is night and day, the Merc is just so much better to drive in. I agree with the comments that Vauxhall's have picked up and the gap has narrowed. I drove a hired Vectra SRi recently with 17inch wheels and I felt every single bump in the road, and felt tired and miserable at the other end of the journey. Nice big car, plenty of gadgets and very good value (get one for 9Grand at a year old) but I'd never willingly trade the Merc keys for one.

But Audi/VW, that could be a different story..!

John

 

[anyweb]

my brother has a vauxhall astra the same age as my 230ce (1990)

his car looks like a pile of crap, mine has a timeless elegant design.

i wouldnt swap

I couldn't agree more,

to me, it's not just the quality of the mercs (I've had fords and other cars in the past) its more, it's the look and feel of the car

every time i look out my front door i see two cars, the merc and the chrysler voyager (wifes) and my eyes are constantly dragged towards the merc, addictive ? yes, i had the same with my last merc (a 190d)

i just love how mercs look !!!

Try selling a vauxhall from 1995 with 185.000 km on the clock ?

hehe

cheers
anyweb

 

[izzi613]

From Fridays Daily Mirror.
Home Office table of Top !0 Stolen cars

10/Ford Fiesta Mark 1 2 and 3
9 /Montego
8 /Maestro
7 /Rover Metro
6 /Orion
5 /Vauxhall Nova
4 /Austin Metro
3 /Escort mark3
2 /Vauxhall Astra

Most stolen

1 /Vauxhall Belmont

Thats another Home Office waste of time!! there are probably about 5 of each of those cars left on the road and their owners probably could't care less if they were nicked as they are all dogs bar none!! whats the blo&^%y point I ask? It should be for cars produced within the last 10 years and then only the Escort and Fiesta would qualify...