Mercedes Diesel software update.

[Botus]

More speculation, you have no idea what savings, if any, the update has on any of the vehicle's emissions, no-one has because MB don't have anything to say about it, and until they do, I for one will be running update free and driving with moral and legal integrity.

there will be a few big reasons they don't disclose how they build a map.

1) intellectual property
2) to put it in to words would be very boring, very complex and expensive
3) the fact you wouldn't understand it


to suggest you got the world's best map 6 years ago is quite frankly ridiculous

a) almost certainly it will have been rushed out in time to get some sales revenue coming in, within the next 18 months there will have been two or three minor updates for drivability issues that engineers subsequently found on their own or from feedback in various markets
b) its quite likely in the early days there were further tweaks for emission / cold start / extreme weather situations others picked up
c) these days very likely other small tweaks to correct oddly behaving engine temp read out, or wobbly fuel computer readings
d) logic fixes for bugs in the alarm and immobiliser as later better ideas were understood
e) stupid numbers of tweaks, fixes and changes to TRY and get the DPF to behave itself
f) EGR tweaks for things like engine temp during start up and poor interior heater performance
g) Engine cooling fan trigger points
h) Gearbox and cruise control performance
i) interesting extras the CEO now thinks should probably be removed before he goes to jail
j) security enhancements
k) improved diagnostic capability. As certain components misbehave and dealerships struggle to resolve, the factory will realise further diagnostic information built into the engine map make solving them simpler / possible
l) make it legal and pass the test it was supposed when first sold... which when they wake up and fix our MOT will mean it has a chance of passing


so when someone offers these for free - it would be a great idea to say thank you
AND DRIVE OFF IN A FAR BETTER, MORE RELAIBLE, SAFER AND LEGAL CAR...

one bit people forget is after a significant change it will have had its adaptions wiped out. Over the next 200 miles or so the car will settle down and get better to drive - closer to how you remember - as it adapts to suit the manu tolerances yours has and or the wear and tear of your particular vehicle

 

[TeddyRuxpin]

I've been reluctant to get involved in the 'moral' debate so far, but I really do find it bizarre that two of the most active posters and defenders of this MB action in this thread - neither of whom own an affected car nor know how the drivability has really been affected (but do own at least one 5L V8 petrol cars) - consider it 'acceptable' that the customer has to accept the burden of Mercedes Benz' lies, lying down.

Your main premise seems to not only be 'just shut up and get the update, MB know best' but actually that if you don't, you're morally questionable.

At no point of course, pointing any moral judgement on a company that a) lies about the emissions in the first instance, b) consider it acceptable to then make the customer pay for the lie by bodging a software update that reduces the economy, efficiency and drivability of the car. Don't worry about the fact that this is often being installed without explanation and people's express permission. 'Just shut up and take the 15-20% less economy and the fact that unless you break the speed limit your car is has now lost 1-2 gears' (depending on if you have 7G or 9G).

I don't want to pollute needlessly/excessively - I'd love a 'free' way to reduce NOx in all cars, but suddenly placing that burden on customers, duping them and changing their car's characteristics drastically is the most morally reprehensible action here - not the people moaning about the change or deception. Or having the audacity to want more details.

Will you spend as much time writing messages to MB informing them of their morally reprehensible actions, or are you just going to lecture us about it?

I am living with the updated car and I'm telling you that the drivability is NOT better, regardless of what you say. You don't have an affected car, you haven't driven one before and after. I have one and have driven my father's, too, and they exhibit the same issues.

Furthermore, I do not owe finance on my car. It's my car. If someone is going to drastically modify it for any reason, that should be fully explained to me (and my father, who is 80 and not a 'car guy' and had the update done to his car without it being mentioned at all).

Meanwhile, there's an entire forum here set to 'tune' cars where cats, muffler, DPF and EGR removal is commonly discussed and endorsed - even by forum sponsors - and as far as I'm aware, there's no sign of you guys piping up there about the morals of their actions.

But, keep cheering for your team while remaining completely unaffected, fellas! I'm surprised you guys get the chance to drive your environmentally friendly 5L cars with all that time you spend up on your high horses.

Ed

 

[TeddyRuxpin]

one bit people forget is after a significant change it will have had its adaptions wiped out. Over the next 200 miles or so the car will settle down and get better to drive - closer to how you remember - as it adapts to suit the manu tolerances yours has and or the wear and tear of your particular vehicle

MB like to use that line a lot to fob people off. It didn't make one bit of difference to my car, other than the gearbox reset aspect, and I've done thousands of miles since the update.

 

[Tony Dyson]

Hello Botus, please find herewith my responses highlighted in Bold to your rather bizarre post herewith. And here's me thinking I was going to have a peaceful evening in front of the telly tonight

there will be a few big reasons they don't disclose how they build a map.

1) intellectual property Speculation

2) to put it in to words would be very boring, very complex and expensive Patronising

3) the fact you wouldn't understand it, arrogant and insulting

to suggest you got the world's best map 6 years ago is quite frankly ridiculous, not ever claimed

a) almost certainly it will have been rushed out in time to get some sales revenue coming in, within the next 18 months there will have been two or three minor updates for drivability issues that engineers subsequently found on their own or from feedback in various markets Assumption

b) its quite likely in the early days there were further tweaks for emission / cold start / extreme weather situations others picked up Assumption

c) these days very likely other small tweaks to correct oddly behaving engine temp read out, or wobbly fuel computer readings Assumption

d) logic fixes for bugs in the alarm and immobiliser as later better ideas were understood Speculation

e) stupid numbers of tweaks, fixes and changes to TRY and get the DPF to behave itself Speculation

f) EGR tweaks for things like engine temp during start up and poor interior heater performance Speculation

g) Engine cooling fan trigger points Relevant to Euro 6b vehicles only

h) Gearbox and cruise control performance Speculation

i) interesting extras the CEO now thinks should probably be removed before he goes to jail Speculation

j) security enhancements Speculation

k) improved diagnostic capability. As certain components misbehave and dealerships struggle to resolve, the factory will realise further diagnostic information will make solving them simpler / possible That’s just Bollock$

l) make it legal and pass the test it was supposed when first sold... which when they wake up and fix our MOT will mean it has a chance of passing All Euro 5 and 6 vehicles pass MOT’s now, nothing is broken, nothing needs fixing.


so when someone offers these for free - it would be a great idea to say thank you
AND DRIVE OFF IN A FAR BETTER, MORE RELAIBLE, SAFER AND LEGAL CAR

“ More speculation, you have no idea what savings, if any, the update has on any of the vehicle's emissions, neither can you claim it to be better, more reliable or safer, no-one can because MB don't have anything to say about it, and until they do, I for one will be running update free and driving with moral and legal integrity.”

 

[Botus]

virtually every vehicle ever made has 3 to 4 engine maps which become available during the supported life of the vehicle

I suggest you look at a print out of the map you have and the later one, in the corner it will list a diagnostics version. many of the updates to various ECUs do indeed update this number, you clearly have no idea about pretty much anything

this info is very well hidden, with Mercedes probably doing the best job of ensuring its not out there, on BMW's you can glean some information but its not that easy

I quite enjoy having a read through when I can find them.

 

[js190d]

Why are you bothered?

Some would say when times are hard and there is less income coming in the only thing to do is to spend less, economise. Live within your new means. A sensible prudent fiscal policy.

The other option is to live beyond your means which would mean getting new money from somewhere to achieve your ambitious new "green", defence & digital economy aims.

I would suggest Europeans should be very worried where this additional money is going to come from and should vote with there feet (if given the chance, as if) when they are asked to pay more by an ever more financially illiterate gaggle of politicians in Brussels (or Strasbourg once a month).

Or maybe they are going to fine German car manufacturers more money to fill up there depleted coffers.

If it is true that the EU have already fined Mercedes 1 billion euro's then i do not understand why they would pay the fine as they met the laboratory standards set by the EU.

But who knows what deals they do behind closed doors we are not privvy to.

That's why i am bothered.

 

[ioweddie]

Update done..no new nox sensors required...clean bill of health...car drives and performs exactly the same as it did before....

 

[LostKiwi]

I've been reluctant to get involved in the 'moral' debate so far, but I really do find it bizarre that two of the most active posters and defenders of this MB action in this thread - neither of whom own an affected car nor know how the drivability has really been affected (but do own at least one 5L V8 petrol cars) - consider it 'acceptable' that the customer has to accept the burden of Mercedes Benz' lies, lying down.

As has already been stated I may have 2 5 Litre V8s but they are not in regular use and cover very low mileage.
Both have catalytic converters fitted and both pass the (more technically accurate than diesel) MOT emissions test with ease.
The later V8 is also ULEZ compliant even after 18 years have elapsed since manufacturer. The older vehicle has even had a new catalytic converter fitted last year when it would have been easier and cheaper to simply gut the old one (especially since it has no post cat lambda sensor unlike newer ones).
However given I don't believe in polluting unnecessarily I took the expensive route of replacing the cat (which will also cost me some economy and power).

MB may have fitted an illegal method of passing the requisite emissions tests and there is no defence for that but having tacitly admitted to wrong doing they have corrected the map accordingly.
There is no doubt in my mind that we all have a duty to minimise our impact on the environment in the ways we are able. For someone to choose not to update their engine map to remove some of the harmful emissions is morally questionable. MB have at least done their bit by making the correction available for free to all.
I have always held a firm belief that if a car has emissions controls they should not be bypassed (and include in this EGR, swirl flaps, DPFs and catalytic converters - all of which contribute to cleaning the emissions of a vehicle.
For what it's worth I have always felt diesel should never have been encouraged as a fuel for personal transport due to the inherent pollution issues which require significant cleaning of the exhaust just to get parity with other fuels available. LPG for example would have been a far more sensible option as it is cleaner than either petrol or diesel. Likewise CNG.

 

[malcolm E53 AMG]

My view - when an engine is designed components like a Nox sensors etc are designed to certain heat tolerances and unfortunately remapping a vehicle can have serious consequences if the fuel mixture is leaned off resulting in higher temperatures as part of the new map, the whole farce is a retrospective admission of guilt on the part of the manufacturer and the car owner picks up the tab unfortunately in burnt out sensors and heavier fuel consumption

 

[LostKiwi]

Some would say when times are hard and there is less income coming in the only thing to do is to spend less, economise. Live within your new means. A sensible prudent fiscal policy.

The other option is to live beyond your means which would mean getting new money from somewhere to achieve your ambitious new "green", defence & digital economy aims.

I would suggest Europeans should be very worried where this additional money is going to come from and should vote with there feet (if given the chance, as if) when they are asked to pay more by an ever more financially illiterate gaggle of politicians in Brussels (or Strasbourg once a month).

Or maybe they are going to fine German car manufacturers more money to fill up there depleted coffers.

If it is true that the EU have already fined Mercedes 1 billion euro's then i do not understand why they would pay the fine as they met the laboratory standards set by the EU.

But who knows what deals they do behind closed doors we are not privvy to.

That's why i am bothered.

And it affects you how given we are not in the EU (outside your rabid dislike of the European Union)?

 

[js190d]

And it affects you how given we are not in the EU (outside your rabid dislike of the European Union)?

The UK is still part of Europe and always will be. You seem to think that the European Union is Europe. They are not the same thing, in fact the Eu is Europe's antithesis

 

[Blobcat]

Let’s get back to software updates. Don’t wish to close the thread or prune it

 

[Botus]

The UK is still part of Europe and always will be. You seem to think that the European Union is Europe. They are not the same thing, in fact the Eu is Europe's antinthesis

As Europeans, we started the abuse of the world's resources, stood by and allowed the USA marketing department to convince people of humble origins life's far better if we abuse each other and trash the place, then to make matters far worse consciously supported exploitation and the throw away society moving jobs to China... We have an obligation to stop the rest of the world being as stupid as we have been and the knowledge to do so, if we stop being apathetic.

It would be far easier and more effective to work together under the EU umbrella on the much needed fixes, live a simpler life and control corporate monsters. But a few halfwits voted to become a slave for 10 years making Boris and his mates rich as we stand back and watch it all implode - whilst pretending everything's getting better

 

[js190d]

As Europeans, we started the abuse of the world's resources, stood by and allowed the USA marketing department to convince people of humble origins life's far better if we abuse each other and trash the place, then to make matters far worse consciously supported exploitation and the throw away society moving jobs to China... We have an obligation to stop the rest of the world being as stupid as we have been and the knowledge to do so, if we stop being apathetic.

It would be far easier and more effective to work together under the EU umbrella on the much needed fixes, live a simpler life and control corporate monsters. But a few halfwits voted to become a slave for 10 years making Boris and his mates rich as we stand back and watch it all implode - whilst pretending everything's getting better

In the last 40 years the German car industry has risen from global obscurity to the monster it is today. That rise to power was enabled by the organisation you love so much.

You do realise that most of this planet's population live in abject poverty. And you from the rich West, who has made all the money, now want to stop international development. What about everybody else, do they not get the chance to prosper too?

As for the moral question being framed as a choice for the individual, that is nothing but a ruse, a poor attempt at deception.

The morals of the globalists like Mercedes and VAG group are the only ones that should be discussed and it does not take long to come to the conclusion that they have no morals at all. Just like in the USA anyone who was mis sold a car could get there money back. That is what should be happening in the UK as well.

 

[Botus]

yes, then many grew up and we now need to fix it all

international development is stupid. Before the planet died, the sole objective was to make the rich disgustingly rich and the rest slaves. We should dig a Veg patch, ride bicycles and chill. A perfect example is the "progress" away from that ideology to the new Chinese method, dead planet inside 45 years absolutely brilliant...

 

[LostKiwi]

As for the moral question being framed as a choice for the individual, that is nothing but a ruse, a poor attempt at deception.

Let's out it differently.
If my car fails on emissions I have to fix it. If it's a failed cat I have to change it. If the manufacturer acknowledges the cat was faulty from new they fix it for free.
Diesels were sold with faulty software. They would fail the tests with it. If proper MOT tests for diesels come in that reflect the requirements of the EU level the vehicle is certified to (as opposed to "does it smoke") they would fail. MB have acknowledged the software is faulty and have released a free fix.
No different.

 

[js190d]

yes, then many grew up and we now need to fix it all

international development is stupid. Before the planet died, the sole objective was to make the rich disgustingly rich and the rest slaves. We should dig a Veg patch, ride bicycles and chill. A perfect example is the "progress" away from that ideology to the new Chinese method, dead planet inside 45 years absolutely brilliant...

Stop kidding yourself. You did as you were told when consuming things was the thing to do and now you are doing what you are told to feel shame for "destroying" the planet through your consumption.
Try thinking for yourself, you are being sold another lie.

 

[LostKiwi]

Stop kidding yourself. You did as you were told when consuming things was the thing to do and now you are doing what you are told to feel shame for "destroying" the planet through your consumption.
Try thinking for yourself, you are being sold another lie.

As were people who bought diesels in the belief they were better for the environment (though I suspect there was more than a little tightness of the wallet involved when they realised they'd pay less in fuel and tax which is now reflected in some comments on here). Anyone believing diesels were better for the environment clearly didn't do their research well as the NOx issues were well known even then as were the particulate issues (it wasn't coincidence diesels were nicknamed "soot chuckers").

 

[js190d]

A

Let's out it differently.
If my car fails on emissions I have to fix it. If it's a failed cat I have to change it. If the manufacturer acknowledges the cat was faulty from new they fix it for free.
Diesels were sold with faulty software. They would fail the tests with it. If proper MOT tests for diesels come in that reflect the requirements of the EU level the vehicle is certified to (as opposed to "does it smoke") they would fail. MB have acknowledged the software is faulty and have released a free fix.
No different.

A defeat device is not a "fault".

It's purpose is to cheat emissions lab based tests. Customers purchased those cars based on the economy and subsequent taxation class to suit their transport requirements.

A deliberate deception is not the same as a fault.

 

[LostKiwi]

A

A defeat device is not a "fault".

It's purpose is to cheat emissions lab based tests. Customers purchased those cars based on the economy and subsequent taxation class to suit their transport requirements.

A deliberate deception is not the same as a fault.

Does it matter? It wouldn't pass a proper emissions test so you'd still have to fix it.
Time to press the government to implement proper testing of diesels.