Mercedes Unreliability

[grpar]

To all those who point to Mercedes' increasing reliability and customer orientation, I would encourage you (gently) to sample the main dealers in and around greater London, and then decide on whether the experience is uniform.

Without pre-judging, it sounds to me as though you are experiencing far better MB dealer service than I have had the unfortunate circumstance to enjoy. Lest we forget, MB Brentford is a large dealership servicing around 100 cars a day. In theory, that would suggest they know their stuff. Sadly, my experience doesn't seem to bear that out.

And my apologies to Wihitenemesis on my slightly barbed comments last night. You will understand that being 100% happy with your vehicle is not an experience we are all fortunate enough to enjoy. As they say in the army, "never defend a bad position".

Personally speaking, my C-class will be the last vehicle I purchase from Mercedes. I remember fondly the excellent service I received on my last BMW 3-series at a City-based dealer called Sytners. Plenty of Square Mile folk using Sytners' services, and by god, they knew that they had to look after customers or face an unpleasant response in return. Mercedes is now realising that reputation is something so easily squandered; unfortunately, they will be dealing with this for a few years yet before they're in the clear. As one contributor said, once Clarkson gives mainstream MB models the thumbs up, then it might be time to have a look.

In the meantime, I leave it to the devotees.

 

[grpar]

Not so. The biggest survey of all is JD Power and Mercs are well up the table.

http://forums.mercedesclub.org.uk/showthread.php?t=20188 Link to the thread “Reliable Mercedes”

Lexus and Honda did best in the list of all models but it is noteworthy how close the marks are from 10th to 40th. Just to cheer ourselves up here are some rankings in the table of all models. Out of 104 cars reported on by thousands of owners the E class finished 28th (just behind the Audi A4 and the Toyota Celica and the C class came 32nd just ahead of the Audi A3 and the Audi A6 and the VW Golf. Both Mercedes were well ahead of the BMW 5 series at 54th and well ahead of the Nissan Primera (56th=) and the Mazda MX5 (56=) and way ahead of the BMW Z4 (74th) and the AUDI TT ( a lowly 78th). Bringing up the rear from 100 to 105th place were three Fords, a Peugeot and the Land Rover Discovery.

So Mercs may not be the most reliable but the improvements are coming through for all to see and this year they beat some surprising competitors - none I imagine more satisfying than beating the BMW 5 series and Z4 as well as all but one of the Audi models.

Here are the links: -
http://www.whatcar.com/news-special-...aspx?NA=220291
http://www.whatcar.com/NonCar/8666102471.jpg

Checked your thread, Hawk20. What Car's survey of 2006 cars states that the average mileage of all respondents was 16k miles. Even my C-class was still relatively reliable at 16k (if I smile and squint through rose coloured specs).

If Merc couldn't even put in a respectable performance at that sort of average mileage, then they would truly be right down there with the CR&P (Citroen, Renault, & Peugeot).

Let's see what the surveys say in 2010, when all of these seemingly happy MB owners have a car that's pushing its 3rd birthday. Assuming of course they can be bothered to enter their feedback by then (good or bad).

Don't get me wrong, I'm not tarring MB with a bad brush altogether. Members of my family have CLKs and are happy with them (much less so the A-classes they own).

It's the suggestion that MB is somehow infallible that grates.

And let's face it, if you've just spent £40k on an E or £60k on an S, you're going to expect a reliable car. Coming down the scale to £25-30k and the experience appears to suffer .....

 

[whitenemesis]

To all those who point to Mercedes' increasing reliability and customer orientation, I would encourage you (gently) to sample the main dealers in and around greater London, and then decide on whether the experience is uniform.

Without pre-judging, it sounds to me as though you are experiencing far better MB dealer service than I have had the unfortunate circumstance to enjoy. Lest we forget, MB Brentford is a large dealership servicing around 100 cars a day. In theory, that would suggest they know their stuff. Sadly, my experience doesn't seem to bear that out.

And my apologies to Wihitenemesis on my slightly barbed comments last night. You will understand that being 100% happy with your vehicle is not an experience we are all fortunate enough to enjoy. As they say in the army, "never defend a bad position".

Personally speaking, my C-class will be the last vehicle I purchase from Mercedes. I remember fondly the excellent service I received on my last BMW 3-series at a City-based dealer called Sytners. Plenty of Square Mile folk using Sytners' services, and by god, they knew that they had to look after customers or face an unpleasant response in return. Mercedes is now realising that reputation is something so easily squandered; unfortunately, they will be dealing with this for a few years yet before they're in the clear. As one contributor said, once Clarkson gives mainstream MB models the thumbs up, then it might be time to have a look.

In the meantime, I leave it to the devotees.

Apology accepted, although there was no need but thank you.

Interestingly my MB dealership is run by Sytners!! :-?

 

[hawk20]

What I would say to grpar is that sadly if you want a luxury saloon, front engine and rear drive, it really is a choice between Merc and BMW. In case you missed this posting look at some of the BMW problems. And remember that the 5 series finished 54th in JD Power.

BMW PROBLEMS

See first page of this thread for lots of BMW engine problems, blown turbos etc
http://forums.mercedesclub.org.uk/sh...ad.php?t=34397
soon to be owner of C220CDI Elegance needs your help

http://www.bmwland.co.uk/talker/viewtopic.php?t=53451
Yet another owner suffers!

"My 320d went the same way as yours and Warleys some five weeks ago. Unfortunately as my vehicle had done 133k and didn't have a full BMW service history (Block Exemption - what's that!!) I was offered a generous 20% off parts on a £10k bill!! When you add this failure to the failed turbocharger, the failed injectors, the failed fuel pump, the failed springs and the failed front wishbone rear bushes over its five year life, I bought a vehicle that has turned out to be less of "the ultimate driving machine", more like a piece of overpriced junk!!

It is also worth remembering that grpar says his local dealer services 100 cars a day! If only 2% of those are not happy, IMO that would be a good record. But we would tend to hear from the 2% on a forum, rather than the 98%.

 

[grpar]

Hawk20,

There will always be those customers that complain at everything, whinge about the dealer / marque, but ultimately have a car that is fixed and performs as it should. Generally they whinge about cost, and nothing else. I would hope it's only this type of customer that would fall into the 2% category you suggested.

Then there are an entirely different bunch who try to work the problem(s) through with the dealer, be rational and reasonable over a period of time, and ultimately get nowhere in particular. This is either because the dealer isn't that much bothered, or because they like to think the problems are all in your head and attempt a fob-off. Or both, which is the category I find myself in. By itself, let's hope for MB's sake that this is not the 2% of customers you suggest are sent away unhappy.

In any event, when you boil in down to its jam, it's not what I expected of MB and its reputation. Sure, things go wrong. That's life. But MB ought to be better than they actually are in trying to rectify stuff. The premium service just isn't there in full.

But as I said, I'm not here to tar MB's reputation. Only to point out to the contented devotees that there is another side to the MB experience.

Let's hope it manages to avoid you, eh ?

 

[Rory]

What I would say to grpar is that sadly if you want a luxury saloon, front engine and rear drive, it really is a choice between Merc and BMW.

Not Lexus?

At one time a number of people in my village had MB's - off the top of my head I think I'm the only one now. There are a lot of BMWs and a few Lexus's (Lexii?).

One thing that changed a few years ago is that the original small independantly owned MB dealer which was conveniently on our side of town closed down and was moved to the other side of town to a glass palace operated by a large group.

 

[jberks]

Where else can we get the Smart looked after that isn't miles away? Brooklands recently sent the car back from a B service with oil leaking from the sump plug. Then the person we had an appointment to see wasn't there leaving us waiting for half hour. etc etc, and so it goes on.................

Ok, I'm very lucky. I don't have the great misfortune to have to live in or (at least for now) work in or around London. I'd have thought Weybridge was far enough outside London to avoid the whole 'what the hell do you want' attitude that pervades every pore of London life, (at least that's been my experience) but, as it seems not, in your area there must be more than one of MB dealer?.

Most, if not all, operate a collect and return service so location isn't that critical. I tend to use the Leeds dealer as my warranty was via them so it's simpler, but Harrogate, Bradford and even Huddersfield and Wakefield will happily come to my house and collect my car for a basic service, or else I arrange to drop it off in the evening after work, when time pressures are off, collect a loaner and swap back at my lesure the following evening. When I had the ESP fixed, I dropped off a key on Saturday, and arranged for them to collect the car from my drive on the day I flew out on holiday and return it the day I came back.

If here in the Whippet and back-to-back world of the norf, I have all these options, surely you have something similar? Make them work for you and if they screw up, demand a free service every time. They'll soon sort themselves out if it costs them. If nothing else, they'll know your name and make sure that you're not the one messed about.

Also, pass your experiences to MBUK and ask to speak to the area manager. They've spent a fortune getting service improved so won't look kindly on their attitude.

 

[grpar]

Jberks,

Alas, things so often seem to work differently inside the M25 ... no idea why.

Re contacting MG UK, I did, and the next day I got a call from the local dealer to bring the car and in and discuss the issues. Friendly as you like. The issue was floaty steering at motorway speed; so they test drove it down the A4 (which has a 40 mph limit through west London), and concluded that they couldn't replicate the problem. No surprise there then.

That's why I say there is no premium service, no willingness to actually try to resolve issues. It's just one fob-off after the next. Or a long list of dates when I've wasted my own time going in there.

Having a "greeter" on the door and follow-up phone calls are just lip service to addressing the real problem. In fact, I wouldn't mind how they behaved as long as they fixed the problem, once and for all. But there's just no attempt or willingness there to do so.

Funnily enough, where I live our underground garage used to be full of Mercs and Audis. In the last couple of years, there's a lot more BMWs that seem to have appeared. One of my neighbours has a BMW 3-series, and reckons his dealer on the A4 is one of the best he's ever dealt with. And there's no greeter at their entrance. Get my drift .... ?

Perhaps if there was a dealer in and around Manchester that I could use (I travel there a lot), I would give it a try to see if they could resolve things. A kind of drink in the last chance C-class saloon (sorry).

Can anyone genuinely hand-on-heart recommend one .... ?

 

[stumpy]

Ok, I'm very lucky. I don't have the great misfortune to have to live in or (at least for now) work in or around London. I'd have thought Weybridge was far enough outside London to avoid the whole 'what the hell do you want' attitude that pervades every pore of London life, (at least that's been my experience) but, as it seems not, in your area there must be more than one of MB dealer?.

Most, if not all, operate a collect and return service so location isn't that critical. I tend to use the Leeds dealer as my warranty was via them so it's simpler, but Harrogate, Bradford and even Huddersfield and Wakefield will happily come to my house and collect my car for a basic service, or else I arrange to drop it off in the evening after work, when time pressures are off, collect a loaner and swap back at my lesure the following evening. When I had the ESP fixed, I dropped off a key on Saturday, and arranged for them to collect the car from my drive on the day I flew out on holiday and return it the day I came back.

If here in the Whippet and back-to-back world of the norf, I have all these options, surely you have something similar? Make them work for you and if they screw up, demand a free service every time. They'll soon sort themselves out if it costs them. If nothing else, they'll know your name and make sure that you're not the one messed about.

Also, pass your experiences to MBUK and ask to speak to the area manager. They've spent a fortune getting service improved so won't look kindly on their attitude.

MBworld were very reluctant to drop her Smart off to Cobham 3 miles from their site after fixing the oil leak they created. After I blew my stack they dropped it off an hour later, probably to avoid me sounding off in their snazzy reception. They are also going to steam clean the oil from my driveway, and today picked the car up and washed it too while fixing another fault. I reserve judgment for a bit longer, but this is what I expect. (BMW have had a bit of bashing on this thread, but my BMW dealer will do a 60 mile round trip collect and deliver just for an MOT.)

 

[Rory]

Alas, things so often seem to work differently inside the M25 ... no idea why.

I guess because they don't have to. You mentioned your dealer servicing 100 cars per day - while 100 seems an extraordinary number, I noted while "down South" over the last couple of days, that I saw a *huge* number of MB's. On the M25 there were sometimes little convoys of them!

When I visit my local dealership (Chester), there seems to be very little activity, service wise. Clearly they must do some, but it certainly doesn't give the impression that it's a busy place.

 

[grpar]

Jberks,

Can anyone genuinely hand-on-heart recommend one .... ?

I guess not then ...... ! QED, ne c'est pas ?

 

[jberks]

I guess not then ...... ! QED, ne c'est pas ?

Give us a chance !! There's you southerners, always rush rush rush !!

Seriously, I've not used the Manchester dealers aside from the parts department at the one near the stadium when I worked there so I can't comment on how good or bad they are. In any case, most dealers were still in the doldrums a couple of years ago so it would have been a bad comparison.

When I was having trouble a few years ago, getting fobbed off, "The car is fine Sir", in desparation I turned to an indie. They did what the dealer couldn't (or wouldn't) and rather than plug it in, read the codes and return it, they spent a few hours on it with a spanner and finally sorted it. Perhaps there is a local indie you could try, at least to diagnose the problem. As a small personally owned firm, they will look after you and these days, no impact on your warranty so if you like them there is no reason not to use them.

 

[grpar]

Thanks Jberks,

There is an indie in Richmond (west London) that I think Television might have mentioned many moons ago (on a different thread). May well try them to see if they can crack the handling issue.

Given the obvious and overt charm of the northerners, I'd like to try a Manchester dealer to see if the difference in service is palpable.

 

[Blinste]

Mercs are rubbish - get rid and buy Japanese

 

[hawk20]

Mercs are rubbish - get rid and buy Japanese

If you are sure you haven't come to wrong forum by mistake, you may care to have a look at my earlier postings on JD Power; you will see plenty of Japanese doing far less well than Mercedes. Perhaps you would like to list all the motoring mags you can think of that reckon Lexus is as good a car as a Merc or even a BMW for that matter.

So far Lexus will only give a 3 year, 60,000 mile guarantee on their cars. Mercedes give 3 years and unlimited mileage.

 

[jberks]

Mercs are rubbish - get rid and buy Japanese

Absolutely - They are very reliable. But then so is my microwave and come to think of it, it's very similar to a Japanese car. Both had new models available in the shops before I'd had it a week, both are copies of Euopean models, both are primarily made out of cheap plastic and I wouldn't want to drive either.

You know it's funny. I have 3 friends who bought cars around the same time. One a Ford, one a Toyota and the 3rd a Merc. The first 2 are happy enough with their choices but have been discussing what their next car will be for several months now, the 3rd chap and I haven't had much to say. We're not changing and we're both agreed, that if and when we do, it will only be for the same again. As he said to me only yesterday, "Thankyou for talking me into buying a merc. I've had it over 12 months now and I still grin every time I get in it" and you know what, I'm on my 3rd. Been running them since 1998 and I still feel the same. Nobody ever said that about a Toyota. Reliable or not.

 

[Silver-racer]

Mercedes Reliability

I have had numerous cars in the last 38 years, some very cheap and not spent a penny. the percieved reliability comes down to a lot of factors. If you pay £20k+ for a car and you get warning lights or niggles these will really annoy you, but, if you pay a relative smaller amount for a car, you would say for the same set of warning lights or niggles is "What do you expect for a car at this price"!
I have had a new ford Orion 1.8 D -which had 13 sets of discs and pads, 4 sets of hubs, 2 clutches, two sets of track control arms, 2 sets of engine mounts, and both CV joints which finally cured the "vibration on braking fault"" -this was in the first 10 months (a company car) otherwise it would have been accidently driven through the showroom window along time before all the hassle.
I have had a new Mazda MX5 which had 3 batteries, an alternator and voltage regulators until after 10 months they found the fault (after me rejecting it as not fit for purpose) as a faulty window motor winding draining the volts. Prior to me changing to Mercs I would change my cars on a whim but not later than warranty expiry.
My C220 Sport coupe (six years old) just updated to a CLK demonstrator, wasn't planned but went in on a wet day end of Jan and the money to change couldn't be faulted (super deal to make targets)

'07 CLK 220 cdi elegance
'02 200 SLK Plaything
'02 c220 cdi Sport coupe (upgraded)

Gerry
(N Wales

 

[grpar]

Mercs are rubbish - get rid and buy Japanese

I wouldn't say MBs are rubbish, because clearly they are not, even despite the "service approach" problems that have beset the MB dealer I've used.

All cars will go wrong at some stage. It's all down to expectation, and whether the manufacturer delivers on the claims they make. That's where the Merc marketing hype seems to diverge from the main dealer experience ....

MB claim they're making the whole service experience better, so let's hope they do. One missed expectation is one thing. A broken promise is something quite different.

Interestingly, this month's What Car has a group test of the BMW 320d, C220 CDI, new Audi A4 TDI, and an American tin-can thing. BMW again comes top on driving experience ..... this is about the 5th time WC have done this type of group test, and the 320d has yet another 1st place (for about the fifth time, in fact). I'm going back to BMW for the next car, and then Lexus thereafter if needed.

When Clarkson or Honest John say its time to return to Merc, I might pay attention then.

 

[RichardSmith]

Mercs are rubbish - get rid and buy Japanese

I am on my second SLK now after years of owning Japanese cars and, before I bought my first one a couple of years ago, I would probably have agreed with you.

The Japanese make some reliable cars but most of them lack soul and substance - with a few notable exceptions. Eg the Honda NSX, Mazda RX7, Nissan 300zx and the Mk3 Toyota Supra. The latest Supra, whilst it is fast and capable, lacks true driver appeal as it is just so clinical. The more flawed Porsche 928 is just a much better enthusiast's car.

In fact I still have my 1993 300zx twin turbo (a well looked after, low mileage UK spec - not a grey import); and that's proof the Japanese can make a truly great driver's car. I can honestly say that driving the ZX back to back with my 2 year old SLK350, you wouldn't think there was such an age difference - Nissan got it right all those years ago.

But the ZX, NSX etc etc are not your typical average cars - Japanese or otherwise. So to compaye them to a Mercedes seems inappropriate. It's true that MB went through a period of dogged reliability but they make some realy fine cars at present.

Also, unlike Jaguar and to a lesser extent BMW, making smaller cars has done nothing to "cheapen" the brand. A Mercedes still retains its status as a prestige brand.

Richard

PS I also have a Rav-4 so I think I'm qualified to debate the Jap v Merc question.........:wink:

 

[hawk20]

I guess not then ...... ! QED, ne c'est pas ?

Southampton is a nice day trip from you? The Group Diagnostic Technician there is mustard. And a really nice guy too. Couldn't be more helpful IMO.