Porsche conjestion petition.

[stumpy]

But those who pollute more should pay more, right ?? Surely you don't disagree with that ?

After all, why should you live outside London only to then drive into the city where I live and leave your 225g+ behind in every km you drive.

It's just like those who live in bigger flats & houses should pay more council tax, which they do. No real difference there, is there ?

Sounds like you just don't like being caught out. Well, you have a way out. Buy something else instead .... like anything with a "d", " TDI" or "CDI" badge on the back. All those private car service firms in London can't be wrong, now can they ? Then it'll only be the particulates that are left to kill us city folk ......

I thought it was called 'congestion charge'. What my car spews out the back has got f'all to do with it.

 

[Splatt]

But those who pollute more should pay more, right ?? Surely you don't disagree with that ?

After all, why should you live outside London only to then drive into the city where I live and leave your 225g+ behind in every km you drive.

It's just like those who live in bigger flats & houses should pay more council tax, which they do. No real difference there, is there ?

Sounds like you just don't like being caught out. Well, you have a way out. Buy something else instead .... like anything with a "d", " TDI" or "CDI" badge on the back. All those private car service firms in London can't be wrong, now can they ? Then it'll only be the particulates that are left to kill us city folk ......

I dont drive into London and I dont own a "G" band car but that does not blind me to the stupidity of a man who states he is going out for the monster 4x4`s and ends up hitting average size family vehicles possibly owned by Mr Average, these are will ones who will really suffer. The owners of the of big MB`s, BMW`s, Range Rovers will not notice it, the cars are all run on their buisnesses and the cost will go unnoticed.

 

[stumpy]

I dont drive into London and I dont own a "G" band car but that does not blind me to the stupidity of a man who states he is going out for the monster 4x4`s and ends up hitting average size family vehicles possibly owned by Mr Average, these are will ones who will really suffer. The owners of the of big MB`s, BMW`s, Range Rovers will not notice it, the cars are all run on their buisnesses and the cost will go unnoticed.

I live inside the M25 and run several band G cars. My choice I know, but I already pay through the nose for these privileges. And before some wise arse pipes up and tells me to buy a Prius and move house - why don't we all use our legs and live in caves then? No, what some of you people who live outside London fail to realise is that all this **** is heading your way to your local town / city and in that case we are all affected by this moron Ken. Two other points - My Bentley is exempt from the CC as it is a licensed Private Hire car. 6.75 Turbo and no 'D' in sight. Also, if I go to see a client who lives inside the zone, the charge is passed onto him and not me. With respect, grpar needs to open his eyes and see the bigger picture here.

 

[Blobcat]

I live inside the M25 and run several band G cars. My choice I know, but I already pay through the nose for these privileges. And before some wise arse pipes up and tells me to buy a Prius and move house - why don't we all use our legs and live in caves then? No, what some of you people who live outside London fail to realise is that all this **** is heading your way to your local town / city and in that case we are all affected by this moron Ken. Two other points - My Bentley is exempt from the CC as it is a licensed Private Hire car. 6.75 Turbo and no 'D' in sight. Also, if I go to see a client who lives inside the zone, the charge is passed onto him and not me. With respect, grpar needs to open his eyes and see the bigger picture here.

Pls don't buy an "Environment Killer" Toyota Smug.

 

[stumpy]

Pls don't buy an "Environment Killer" Toyota Smug.

The MIL has one in Sweden and the engine seemed to be running most of the time so not that eco really. In my view they should scrap all these stealth taxes and bung it all on fuel. Those who drive more pollute more, therefore should pay more.

 

[Blobcat]

The MIL has one in Sweden and the engine seemed to be running most of the time so not that eco really. In my view they should scrap all these stealth taxes and bung it all on fuel. Those who drive more pollute more, therefore should pay more.

They've already done that, unfortunately they don't spend the money as if it was their own... If they did perhaps there would be a little more of it and the taxes they already collect would be sufficient.

 

[jamesmc]

I choose not to drive into the congestion zone each day because it's impractical. However, I have an opinion which is not limited by distance from the topic source.
In fact I choose not to live in the UK at all but boy do I hate seeing the grief you people have to put up with, and seem to accept lying down, just to live your lives.
Where has the backbone gone from the average UK citizen? Why aren't all the car owners about to get nailed actually writing to their MP or some other political entity to complain. Maybe I am wrong, and many of you affected may already have written. 25 quid a day.. verses a few minutes to write a letter to your MP is a no brainer to me.

I find it unacceptable that:
All car owners in the UK pay road fund licence, which in my opinion should entitle them to drive anywhere on the UK public highways, and yet they still have to pay extra charges to drive on public highways which were built with their tax payers/road fund money on the first place!

Looking at the figures quoted earlier in this thread it seems the London authorities stand to gain around £561,000/day out of this and yet all I see is a car manufacturer bothering to do anything about what, judging by the times of the day that the charge is applied, can only be described as daylight robbery. They used to lock people up for that.

With the financial success of this project virtually guaranteed they will gradually suck in smaller and smaller cars until even the so called hybrids will be paying. By then they will have re-badged it and called it .... er '[insert city name here] entry tax'.

It'll be OK in the end though because, as far as this hike is concerned, there is simply no need to write to anyone in authority voicing your objection to this looming 'tax'. You all know that someone else is sure to on your behalf, like BMW for example.

Then, in true British fashion, because very few actually wrote and complained to anyone that may make a difference, Cough up guys n gals!

 

[Blobcat]

I find it unacceptable that:
All car owners in the UK pay road fund licence, which in my opinion should entitle them to drive anywhere on the UK public highways, and yet they still have to pay extra charges to drive on public highways which were built with their tax payers/road fund money on the first place!

Road Fund Licence was change to Vehicle Excise Duty to enable Toll Roads and Congestion Charging. That way we're not paying twice for the same thing, or at least that is the theory....

 

[JEZ.S320L]

I choose not to drive into the congestion zone each day because it's impractical.... etc ....Then, in true British fashion, because very few actually wrote and complained to anyone that may make a difference, Cough up guys n gals!

Totally agree with what you say. BUT there is one leveller - THE BALLOT BOX.

As the saying goes - The people only get the Government/Local Authority etc. they deserve (through the BALLOT BOX).

As an extra thought. The swarms of illegals/Eastern Europians etc., have to get their benefits from SOME source - and as sure as night follows day, the normal source of taxation falls far short of their needs - hence the ever-increasing list of 'stealth' taxes.

Here endeth the lesson.

 

[grpar]

I live inside the M25 and run several band G cars. My choice I know, but I already pay through the nose for these privileges. And before some wise arse pipes up and tells me to buy a Prius and move house - why don't we all use our legs and live in caves then? No, what some of you people who live outside London fail to realise is that all this **** is heading your way to your local town / city and in that case we are all affected by this moron Ken. Two other points - My Bentley is exempt from the CC as it is a licensed Private Hire car. 6.75 Turbo and no 'D' in sight. Also, if I go to see a client who lives inside the zone, the charge is passed onto him and not me. With respect, grpar needs to open his eyes and see the bigger picture here.

Well Stumpy, the bigger picture is already here. The congestion charge is moving much more towards the air quality charge (in principle that is). That much is true. It fits well alongside the low emission zone that's going to clobber the dirty lorries and vans that also frequent the city's roads.

Sounds to me like you don't give much of a sh*t about anything that might be badged as common sense. I suppose you'll be all for driving down bus lanes and parking in disabled bays as well, right ?? Best way, in fact, the only way to make people like you take some responsibility for your own actions and decisions is to get you in your pocket. If that doesn't make you change behaviour, don't whinge on to us endlessly. Call the Samaritans instead. They volunteer to listen to desperate stories.

 

[stumpy]

Well Stumpy, the bigger picture is already here. The congestion charge is moving much more towards the air quality charge (in principle that is). That much is true. It fits well alongside the low emission zone that's going to clobber the dirty lorries and vans that also frequent the city's roads.

Sounds to me like you don't give much of a sh*t about anything that might be badged as common sense. I suppose you'll be all for driving down bus lanes and parking in disabled bays as well, right ?? Best way, in fact, the only way to make people like you take some responsibility for your own actions and decisions is to get you in your pocket. If that doesn't make you change behaviour, don't whinge on to us endlessly. Call the Samaritans instead. They volunteer to listen to desperate stories.

gpar, you obviously know me so well with your well considered post. However, I don't recall whinging endlessly to you or anyone else for that matter. As I'm sure even you, yes you Mr Common Sense will admit that all these stealth taxes are getting out of proportion. They make hardly any difference to the well off, but do hit more normal folk much harder. I think you would do well to move out of the city, I think all that CO2 produced by 'people like me' (your words) is getting to you a bit old chap. Oh, and bus lanes are for buses and disabled spaces are for disabled people. Blimey, perhaps I do give a sh1t

 

[stumpy]

The MIL has one in Sweden and the engine seemed to be running most of the time so not that eco really. In my view they should scrap all these stealth taxes and bung it all on fuel. Those who drive more pollute more, therefore should pay more.

grpar, this post seems to agree with you that those who pollute more should pay more does it not?

P.S, you weren't at Heathrow today were you.........?

 

[grpar]

grpar, this post seems to agree with you that those who pollute more should pay more does it not?

P.S, you weren't at Heathrow today were you.........?

No, wasn't at Heathrow, as I'm not a fan of "direct action" in any form. It just student politics by another name. All it does is disrupt people's lives for no obvious benefit, or indeed reason (cf: the 2000 fuel protests). They should get a job, I say.

Congestion charge though is moving much more towards being an air quality charge, and not just congestion related. In that sense, on the handful of occasions I drive into the office in The City, I recognise my role in making the air quality that tiny bit worse. You might consider it a stealth tax. As it's consumption related, I think it's a good deal more transparent than that.

And if Ken's estimates are true, then two-thirds of the worst polluting drivers will have been sufficiently dis-incentivised to bring their cars in the capital. Presumably, if those journeys were essential or even just necessary, they must be catching public transport, or (arguably) lower polluting taxi services instead - hence the plethora of green-badged licensed car services that sport all the TDCIs and CDIs you see all over The City.

By default, anyone who persists in their Range Rover Sports or Cayennes is simply a dinosaur. And they weren't famed for their intelligence or adaptability either ....

 

[JEZ.S320L]

.....etc.......By default, anyone who persists in their Range Rover Sports or Cayennes is simply a dinosaur. And they weren't famed for their intelligence or adaptability either ....

grpar - May I ask you a couple of questions, please?

1) What EVIDENCE is there, that CO2 is a main contributer to so-called 'Climate Change'..?

2) IF CO2 is the 'bad boy', what - if anything - is being done about DRAX..??

Thank you.

 

[stumpy]

No, wasn't at Heathrow, as I'm not a fan of "direct action" in any form. It just student politics by another name. All it does is disrupt people's lives for no obvious benefit, or indeed reason (cf: the 2000 fuel protests). They should get a job, I say.

Congestion charge though is moving much more towards being an air quality charge, and not just congestion related. In that sense, on the handful of occasions I drive into the office in The City, I recognise my role in making the air quality that tiny bit worse. You might consider it a stealth tax. As it's consumption related, I think it's a good deal more transparent than that.

And if Ken's estimates are true, then two-thirds of the worst polluting drivers will have been sufficiently dis-incentivised to bring their cars in the capital. Presumably, if those journeys were essential or even just necessary, they must be catching public transport, or (arguably) lower polluting taxi services instead - hence the plethora of green-badged licensed car services that sport all the TDCIs and CDIs you see all over The City.

By default, anyone who persists in their Range Rover Sports or Cayennes is simply a dinosaur. And they weren't famed for their intelligence or adaptability either ....

I agree with much of what you say. Calling it a congestion charge has always been misleading. I think though that with the latest changes, the message given out is more confusing than ever. And the whole system is run very poorly. I think Kens estimates are skewed and it will be interesting to see if traffic volumes actually rise as has been predicted as more people buy lower group cars, and the effect on air quality that has. I know of nobody who is selling their band G car (I hate the way 4x4s are used as examples of evil) to buy a cheaper to run vehicle. Public transport isn't a viable alternative for alot of people and Ken knows this. When you are at home or in the city you must see more G cars than ever. Where I live I do anyway. You have a dig at 4x4 drivers and that's fine, but some do need a vehicle of that type for their lifestyles.

I'm all in favour of looking at car use and its effects. I am amazed at how much time I spend in traffic these days, but what I want to see is a properly thought out, properly run policy.

One thing I do get sick of is the feeling that we as Londoners should apologise for and explain our lifestyle choices. It used to be a free country.

These taxes are stealthy. You pay more VED to drive a G car, you pay more to park a G car (emissions nil) and then you pay more again to drive it in London. And like I said before, the effects don't just hit the motorists pocket. Businesses are affected as are customers like you and me, I pass the charge on to my clients if necessary. We all pay for it one way or another.

 

[grpar]

You know, Jez, you may have a point there. I mean, what proportion of the total traffic inflow into London is made up of Ranges and Cayennes and the like ? Probably a tiny fraction of one percent, if that. As Supertramp once wrote, Crisis ? What Crisis ?

On the main question though about what evidence is there that CO2 is the main contributor (along with NOX), you should perhaps do nothing more than a simple Google.

 

[whitenemesis]

You know, Jez, you may have a point there. I mean, what proportion of the total traffic inflow into London is made up of Ranges and Cayennes and the like ? Probably a tiny fraction of one percent, if that. As Supertramp once wrote, Crisis ? What Crisis ?

On the main question though about what evidence is there that CO2 is the main contributor (along with NOX), you should perhaps do nothing more than a simple Google.

But to what extent is man contributing to that increase in CO2? I suggest very little (~0.5% come to mind) in comparison to volcanos and the oceans and the thawing tundra..

 

[JEZ.S320L]

You know, Jez, you may have a point there. I mean, what proportion of the total traffic inflow into London is made up of Ranges and Cayennes and the like ? Probably a tiny fraction of one percent, if that. As Supertramp once wrote, Crisis ? What Crisis ?

On the main question though about what evidence is there that CO2 is the main contributor (along with NOX), you should perhaps do nothing more than a simple Google.

I have looked into this and, as usual, one group of scientists say yes, another group says no and another group doesn't know either way..!!!!!

As for DRAX (It's in Yorkshire, by the way.!) - Drax The Destroyer: an almost criminally inefficient, global-warming, polluting monstrosity; the single biggest producer of CO2 in Britain. Every year it pumps into the atmosphere around 21 millions tons of CO2 – more than the combined output of the world’s 103 least-polluting countries.

So, grpar - A few Porsches, Range Rovers, Bentleys, 2-litre Mondeo's and other makes in London, would have as much effect on Planet Earth as I would have on increasing sea levels, by taking a wizz in the sea..!!!

 

[grpar]

Jez, I think we've established that congestion charge (given its obvious success in the last 5 years) is now more about local air quality improvement rather than reducing congestion any further. That's the green credential it holds up more now. I don't think even red Kenneth could ever claim to be making an inroad into global warming ......

So the principle is reduced to one of "if you locally pollute, you locally pay". Doesn't seem too contentious, now does it ? (Unless of course, you work for the US embassy in London, where they take a minority view that it's a tax rather than a charge).

 

[JEZ.S320L]

Jez, I think we've established that congestion charge (given its obvious success in the last 5 years) is now more about local air quality improvement rather than reducing congestion any further. That's the green credential it holds up more now. I don't think even red Kenneth could ever claim to be making an inroad into global warming ......

So the principle is reduced to one of "if you locally pollute, you locally pay". Doesn't seem too contentious, now does it ?

grpar - Red Ken is fighting this on a CONGESTION platform - not a 'let's get the polluters' platform. As for your statement -if you locally pollute, you locally pay - they already DO.

It's your Red Ken who is being contentious.