SAVE THE PLANET BUT AT WHAT COST TO OTHER MB OWNERS

[MBGB]

Not wishing to start Miss Thumberg banging her drum, but I have just paid £615 vehicle excise for my 2014 SL350.
Yes I fully understand that figure is derived from the V5 and the original emissions reading printed in it and the tax has slowly risen every year, but when I see electirc cars weighing more than my car, chewing up the roadsurface and paying NO excise fee at all, is that fair?
Just asking.................?
I understand the Government are looking at it, (yeh right) as it is they who want everybody to go electric, long before the national electrical supply chain can cope with the challenge and the reason they will have to open the redundant coal fired stations long before Sizewell C comes on stream in 10-15 years, something they are not shouting about...............pointless IMHO!!

 

[SL63 Mark]

Not wishing to start Miss Thumberg banging her drum, but I have just paid £615 vehicle excise for my 2014 SL350.
Yes I fully understand that figure is derived from the V5 and the original emissions reading printed in it and its slowly risen every year, but when I see electirc cars weighing more than my car, chewing up the roadsurface and paying NO excise fee at all, is that fair?
Just asking.................?
I understand the Government are looking at it, (yeh right) as it is they who want everybody to go electric, long before the national electrical supply chain caan meet the challenge and the reason they will have to open the redundant coal fired stations long before Sizewell C comes on stream in 10-15 years!!

The way I look at it, they have to drive round in a hoover, which is their penance for paying zero excise duty.

We will all be doing it soon, I will keep the biturbo for weekends and holidays.

Teslas are quick, but very boring to look at. I can still leave them behind, except maybe the plaid, but that looks like a Honda.

I knew my car tax would be £600 before I bought the SL, so it did not surprise me. It's worth it though, you are driving an appreciating asset. It's called "fun".

 

[MBGB]

Mark,
Totally agree with that they are great and the reason I bought a newer one with all its issues, it is a breed apart. Unlike when I sold my JPS MK2 Ford Capri I'm keeping this until I get in my box and hopefully get my money back and some ha ha!!

 

[Blobcat]

Not wishing to start Miss Thumberg banging her drum, but I have just paid £615 vehicle excise for my 2014 SL350.
Yes I fully understand that figure is derived from the V5 and the original emissions reading printed in it and the tax has slowly risen every year, but when I see electirc cars weighing more than my car, chewing up the roadsurface and paying NO excise fee at all, is that fair?
Just asking.................?
I understand the Government are looking at it, (yeh right) as it is they who want everybody to go electric, long before the national electrical supply chain can cope with the challenge and the reason they will have to open the redundant coal fired stations long before Sizewell C comes on stream in 10-15 years, something they are not shouting about...............pointless IMHO!!

The current policy is to force ICE drivers into EV, once the majority have done so then tax will be heavily applied to them as it was to Petrol, as it was to Diesel and as it now is to all ICE

EV's are like microwaves - they're fast, but no one ever asked for a microwaved steak...

 

[C16RKC]

Of course it's not fair... but it makes it look like the government are doing something about "the environment", while managing to increase tax revenues and hide it under "green issues".

Greta is just another attention seeker. If she cared that much she would highlight the actual steps needed, instead of just making a lot of noise.

 

[00slk]

If I cared about the environment I wouldn't have 10 vehicles (think I have 10??) all bad for the environment just great to drive about in when 3 or 4 are tax exempt. I am still not convenient this global warming is recent, overwise it makes the bible tell lies.........

 

[Blobcat]

If I cared about the environment I wouldn't have 10 vehicles (think I have 10??) all bad for the environment just great to drive about in when 3 or 4 are tax exempt. I am still not convenient this global warming is recent, overwise it makes the bible tell lies.........

They're not bad for the environment... they exist already, they're well maintained and you're not mining rare earth materials to make new ones - we're being conditioned that you can only save the planet by buying new... which is absolute fallacy

 

[C16RKC]

You can only drive one car at a time Peter, so it does not really matter if you have 1 car of 500. I think go for it and enjoy them!

Few facts as I know them for thought....

We are currently experiencing Co2 levels at around 414ppm, and it is generally accepted that around 350ppm would be an acceptable level. Therefore we'd need to reduce what we produce as a planet by 15% we will have achieved what we need to stop the planet overheating.

For some reason everyone attacks cars, but I think that's just because it is a money spinner for governments. The transport sector produces 26% of global CO2, but only 40% of that is cars. In reality every electric car produced achieves little, because a lot of electricity is still produced by fossil fuels, and it creates lots of CO2 to make these new electric cars... So even if every car on the road today was electric, we'd probably only be part of the way there. I'd estimate we'd reduce CO2 by 5% if all cars were electric, and lets face it; the power stations of the world could not even handle it. I think I remember reading that due to CO2 created in their production, the average electric car takes 10 years to "break even" and start saving us CO2.

There is also the issue that electric cars are not practical for everyone. They are only really any good for those living in cities, or doing low mileages.

So cars are not really the answer as far as I can see.

But a whopping 30% of CO2 is produced by electricity, yet for some reason that seems to be a secondary concern for governments. It appears to be very simple in that convert every Coal or Gas power station to Nuclear (or renewables ) and we have prevented global warming with a comfortable margin. Also, by doing this we improve the CO2 levels of any electric cars that are in use.

In addition to this, 21% of CO2 is produced by industry, so our throwaway society is also bad for the environment. If companies made things more expensive, but made them to last, there would be less production, and no detrimental effect on anyone's lives. That would inconvenience no-one, but it would also make a huge dent in the CO2 levels produced.

So it seems plain to me the answer is to:

- Make a plan to convert all worldwide power stations (it takes 5 years approx. to build new).
- Introduce legislation to move away from "throwaway" products.
- Continue with the current good practices of making everything generally more efficient; but without taxing the public for it.

But this will never happen, as it is not in the interests of the super rich corporations, who just want to sell more product to us. They seem to have worked out that if they keep prices low, but maintain poor quality, us lemmings keep going out and spending over and over.

...and to be clear I am not saying there is any conspiracy or planned "con" going on here. It's just that if a given government imposes restrictions on a company or industry, they are likely to move somewhere else. This would be bad for the economy, so no government is going to want to do that if they don't have to. In contrast they can do what they want to the public, and there is naff all we can do about it.


Now... why can't Greta and her followers see that?

 

[MBGB]

Because .................................she is a child, and yes they too have to stand up for their futures, but they have to see, cars are not the ONLY polution risk to this planet. Cutting millions of acres of rain forest would be my first port of call and stop it forthwith..........some chance of that in my lifetime!!

 

[KennyN]

Something that has been conveniently forgotten about is the ridiculous "luxury" tax , purely based on "ability" to fork out an extra £355 pa so not related to emissions so why aren`t leccy motors included in this as the last time i looked a leccy vehicle was still a vehicle , most of which are £40k + ???

K

 

[MBGB]

Totally agree.......be interested to see when and where those with electric cars pay their dues!! Perhaps its when they try to dump their batteries!!!

 

[malcolm E53 AMG]

I remember when VAT (Value Added Tax) was introduced and we were told it was to tax luxury items how can it then be applied to energy prices and other essential items. I recall the EU introduced the 5% VAT rate on energy Brexit should have seen it abolished in the UK but taxes are like drugs to politicians unfortunately. Gambling tax is the new smoking tax and yes EV tax will become the new ICE tax

 

[sonic]

I bought a SLĆ250d just over 2 years ago, I purposely looked for a pre April 2016. I bought a nice Dec 2015 with 10K miles on the clock, road tax £30.
But what really annoys me is the £101 for my motorcycle thats for any machine over 600cc, irrespective of the power output or C02 rating.

 

[MBDevotee]

You can only drive one car at a time Peter, so it does not really matter if you have 1 car of 500. I think go for it and enjoy them!

Few facts as I know them for thought....

We are currently experiencing Co2 levels at around 414ppm, and it is generally accepted that around 350ppm would be an acceptable level. Therefore we'd need to reduce what we produce as a planet by 15% we will have achieved what we need to stop the planet overheating.

For some reason everyone attacks cars, but I think that's just because it is a money spinner for governments. The transport sector produces 26% of global CO2, but only 40% of that is cars. In reality every electric car produced achieves little, because a lot of electricity is still produced by fossil fuels, and it creates lots of CO2 to make these new electric cars... So even if every car on the road today was electric, we'd probably only be part of the way there. I'd estimate we'd reduce CO2 by 5% if all cars were electric, and lets face it; the power stations of the world could not even handle it. I think I remember reading that due to CO2 created in their production, the average electric car takes 10 years to "break even" and start saving us CO2.

There is also the issue that electric cars are not practical for everyone. They are only really any good for those living in cities, or doing low mileages.

So cars are not really the answer as far as I can see.

But a whopping 30% of CO2 is produced by electricity, yet for some reason that seems to be a secondary concern for governments. It appears to be very simple in that convert every Coal or Gas power station to Nuclear (or renewables ) and we have prevented global warming with a comfortable margin. Also, by doing this we improve the CO2 levels of any electric cars that are in use.

In addition to this, 21% of CO2 is produced by industry, so our throwaway society is also bad for the environment. If companies made things more expensive, but made them to last, there would be less production, and no detrimental effect on anyone's lives. That would inconvenience no-one, but it would also make a huge dent in the CO2 levels produced.

So it seems plain to me the answer is to:

- Make a plan to convert all worldwide power stations (it takes 5 years approx. to build new).
- Introduce legislation to move away from "throwaway" products.
- Continue with the current good practices of making everything generally more efficient; but without taxing the public for it.

But this will never happen, as it is not in the interests of the super rich corporations, who just want to sell more product to us. They seem to have worked out that if they keep prices low, but maintain poor quality, us lemmings keep going out and spending over and over.

...and to be clear I am not saying there is any conspiracy or planned "con" going on here. It's just that if a given government imposes restrictions on a company or industry, they are likely to move somewhere else. This would be bad for the economy, so no government is going to want to do that if they don't have to. In contrast they can do what they want to the public, and there is naff all we can do about it.


Now... why can't Greta and her followers see that?

I am fearful.... very fearful....

Confession - I drive an EV.
Next Confession - I did it (originally) to save tax, but I have become a strong advocate....

And I am now probably gonna pi55 off Blobcat - but here goes....

I totally agree with a great deal of what you said above.

Cars only contribute a small amount of CO2 - compared to heavy industry, heating our homes, cattle etc etc etc.....

However, there are a couple of things I'd like to say in the EV's defence....

1) I agree our Elec generation isn't very good CO2 wise - but that's not the EV's fault. If successive governments had pulled their fingers out 30 years ago and slowly brought more nuclear and renewables online rather than focussing on coal and gas we'd be massively better off now, not to mention independent of Putin's gas issue....

2) A used (i.e. already MADE) ICE car is far more environmentally friendly than making a new EV - of that there is no doubt - from a production point of view, but not a point of use view. However if we accept cars have to be made - is it not better to make environmentally friendly ones?

3) EV's could actually reduce electricity use..... bear with me...... So currently there is a problem with electricity supply during peak times, but a significant excess of capacity in the middle of the night if wind is blowing.... If the government (oh look - them again) had done what it should and made all EV's be V2G compliant (Vehicle to grid) then we'd have the most absurdly huge battery storage facility on the planet.... My car is pretty typical - when I am not driving it, it's plugged in. Therefore at times of peak demand there may (in a few years) be 1,000,000 electric cars plugged in - assuming that you could pull 3kwh from each at such a time that would be a 3,000,000 kwh available for short periods - I don't know what our current battery storage is like in the UK - but it's a helluva lot less than that I'll wager. The car then recharges back to full during the periods of low demand (overnight).

Also everyone goes "oh well, 500,000 ev's charging 64kw every night will cripple the grid...." - That's daft. The average commute in the UK is about 15-20m each way - so if all those cars are used "normally" then they will only need about 5kwh each putting in each night. My car replaces it's daily commute electricity in about 40 mins even on a "normal" 7.4kw charger. Even higher mileage users probably won't use much more than 10kwh most days...

4) I use about 1KWH to do 4.2 miles - in 1 litre of petrol there are 9.6kw of energy - so if your car does 40.32 miles per litre it's as efficient as mine.... or 183mpg - EV's are a lot more efficient users of their power.

5) I buy 100% renewable Electricity (or at least that what my supplier claims) - so 100% of my mileage is on renewable energy - if your car is petrol or diesel, 0% is on renewable energy - I do realise my energy supplier may be lying and I'd never know but even so, I guarantee my electricity is a lot more renewable than your petrol / diesel.

As to other issues mentioned -

"There is also the issue that electric cars are not practical for everyone. They are only really any good for those living in cities, or doing low mileages." - sorry that's utter rubbish. In fact in cities less people have a private parking space so EV's are harder to charge - that actually IS an issue!

My car is 18 months old and has done 18k thereabouts - so I don't consider that "low mileage" - I drive all over the place. I have driven from Bristol to Edinburgh..... no problems whatsoever. My Edinburgh trip was completed with 2 x 40 minute stops - on a 6 hour drive I would have stopped that long in a Petrol or Diesel car as well..... My boss does 60,000m per year - he has an EV, every day he goes from his house in the Midlands to Essex or Bath or Solihull or wherever - he loves it and has had no issues either. I could do a 100m commute easily in my car - every day - that's not "low mileage".

I drove from Bristol to Malvern, Malvern to Shropshire, Shropshire back to Malvern and back to Bristol - in one go, with no recharges.... and I still had 35m range left - hardly a "short trip" or "living in a city". Had I needed to I could have popped onto a rapid and put 80% charge in 40 min and done it all again.

Yes I concede, if you want to drive 500m and have some weird determination to do it without a single stop it won't work (yet) but it will soon - the 750km range EV is coming and coming soon (2023 probably...)

"Totally agree.......be interested to see when and where those with electric cars pay their dues!! Perhaps its when they try to dump their batteries!!!" - Why in gods name would you "dump a battery" ??? Modern liquid cooled / heated batteries are showing little or no degradation. If my 64KWH battery goes to less than 70% Capacity in 7 years I'll get a new one under warranty - but it won't - after 18 months 18,000 m it's still showing 99.999% SOH and my range is still 280m or so (actually now showing 314m range as temperatures are optimum at the moment).... !! But in 15 years time, if the battery is at 50% capacity, it will simply be swapped out, and have a second life as a home storage battery - and given a 5kw home storage battery is about £4k at the moment, I could get maybe £10,000 for it? In reality, all I would actually do is swap out the faulty cell(s) and it would be fine I'm sure (there are a lot in there, and it's unlikely they would ALL be faulty OR someone would buy it with the 50% capacity and be happy they only had a 140m range as they don't do that much more than that often.

I accept / agree that they don't have the aural excitement of an ICE car - but that's a trade off - they are lovely in town or on the dull motorway trips where they are smooth and almost silent - Bentley spend a lot to achieve the same levels of refinement.....

I fully accept they are still unsuitable for those who want to tow heavy loads long distances. I fully accept that people may want to keep a fun V8 for "the weekend" or "for fun" - hell I might even do that myself one day - but I will sure as heck be keeping my EV for the "day to day" for the commute and so on. The costs are low, the performance (at normal road speeds) is astonishing, and they are lovely (in a different way) to drive... Everyone I know who's taken the plunge says they are glad they did - I am sure there are the odd exceptions to that.

 

[Blobcat]

I am fearful.... very fearful....

Confession - I drive an EV.
Next Confession - I did it (originally) to save tax, but I have become a strong advocate....

And I am now probably gonna pi55 off Blobcat - but here goes....

I totally agree with a great deal of what you said above.

Cars only contribute a small amount of CO2 - compared to heavy industry, heating our homes, cattle etc etc etc.....

However, there are a couple of things I'd like to say in the EV's defence....

1) I agree our Elec generation isn't very good CO2 wise - but that's not the EV's fault. If successive governments had pulled their fingers out 30 years ago and slowly brought more nuclear and renewables online rather than focussing on coal and gas we'd be massively better off now, not to mention independent of Putin's gas issue....

2) A used (i.e. already MADE) ICE car is far more environmentally friendly than making a new EV - of that there is no doubt - from a production point of view, but not a point of use view. However if we accept cars have to be made - is it not better to make environmentally friendly ones?

3) EV's could actually reduce electricity use..... bear with me...... So currently there is a problem with electricity supply during peak times, but a significant excess of capacity in the middle of the night if wind is blowing.... If the government (oh look - them again) had done what it should and made all EV's be V2G compliant (Vehicle to grid) then we'd have the most absurdly huge battery storage facility on the planet.... My car is pretty typical - when I am not driving it, it's plugged in. Therefore at times of peak demand there may (in a few years) be 1,000,000 electric cars plugged in - assuming that you could pull 3kwh from each at such a time that would be a 3,000,000 kwh available for short periods - I don't know what our current battery storage is like in the UK - but it's a helluva lot less than that I'll wager. The car then recharges back to full during the periods of low demand (overnight).

4) I use about 1KWH to do 4.2 miles - in 1 litre of petrol there are 9.6kw of energy - so if your car does 40.32 miles per litre it's as efficient as mine.... or 183mpg - so EV's are a lot more efficient users of power.

5) I buy 100% renewable Electricity (or at least that what my supplier claims) - so 100% of my mileage is on renewable energy - if your car is petrol or diesel, 0% is on renewable energy - I do realise my energy supplier may be lying and I'd never know!

As to other issues mentioned -

"There is also the issue that electric cars are not practical for everyone. They are only really any good for those living in cities, or doing low mileages." - sorry that's utter rubbish. My car is 18 months old and has done 18k thereabouts - so I don't consider that "low mileage" - I drive all over the place. I have driven from Bristol to Edinburgh..... no problems whatsoever. My Edinburgh trip was completed with 2 x 40 minute stops - on a 6 hour drive I would have stopped that long in a Petrol or Diesel car as well..... My boss does 60,000m per year - he has an EV, every day he goes from his house in the Midlands to Essex or Bath or Solihull or wherever - he loves it and has had no issues either. I drove from Bristol to Malvern, Malvern to Shropshire, to Malvern and back to Bristol - in one go, with no recharges.... hardly a "short trip" or "living in a city". Yes I concede, if you want to drive 500m without a single stop it won't work (yet) but it will soon....

"Totally agree.......be interested to see when and where those with electric cars pay their dues!! Perhaps its when they try to dump their batteries!!!" - Why in gods name would you "dump a battery" ??? Modern liquid cooled / heated batteries are showing little or no degradation. If my 64KWH battery goes to less than 70% Capacity in 7 years I'll get a new one under warranty - but it won't - after 18 months 18,000 m it's still showing 99.999% SOH and my range is still 280m or so (actually now showing 314m range as temperatures are optimum at the moment).... !! But in 15 years time, if the battery is at 50% capacity, it will simply be swapped out, and have a second life as a home storage battery - and given a 5kw home storage battery is about £4k at the moment, I could get maybe £10,000 for it? In reality, all I would actually do is swap out the faulty cell(s) and it would be fine I'm sure (there are a lot in there, and it's unlikely they would ALL be faulty.

I accept / agree that they don't have the aural excitement of an ICE car - but that's a trade off - they are lovely in town or on the dull motorway trips where they are smooth and almost silent - Bentley spend a lot to achieve the same levels of refinement.....

I fully accept they are still unsuitable for those who want to tow heavy loads long distances. I fully accept that people may want to keep a fun V8 for "the weekend" or "for fun" - hell I might even do that myself one day - but I will sure as heck be keeping my EV for the "day to day" for the commute and so on. The costs are low, the performance (at normal road speeds) is astonishing, and they are lovely (in a different way) to drive... Everyone I know who's taken the plunge says they are glad they did - I am sure there are the odd exceptions to that.


But you are right - Cars are a tiny part of the problem - they really should focus on far more than that - filthy old buses, trains, poor insulation in our homes, inefficient power generation - these are far far more important and urgent issues to solve!

Environment killer…

 

[MBDevotee]

fanks

 

[MBDevotee]

I actually think there will be a place for both

Certain "special" cars will be kept alive for Fun - we still ride horses for example - but it's for leisure and pleasure now, not to really get anywhere..... and EV's will become more used as our day to day transport......

 

[daveenty]

I had an electric car for a while. It was free to tax and cheap to insure. I didn't like it.

I now have a 7.0l V8 in an old American car. Also free to tax and cheap to insure. I like it a lot.

The above are my opinions based on nothing but personal preference.

 

[MBGB]

Spot on............................for God's sake don't do what LABOUR advocated a number of years ago on good advice and buy a Diesel................be keeping mine too practical not to. Be good to see a Tesla towing a caravan, they say the Model X can with lots of its inherant technology turned off to allow it, but not seen one yet

 

[00slk]

I had an electric car for a while. It was free to tax and cheap to insure. I didn't like it.

I now have a 7.0l V8 in an old American car. Also free to tax and cheap to insure. I like it a lot.

The above are my opinions based on nothing but personal preference.

You're a man after my own heart Dave ............Can't fault you, top bloke!