SVO, which car which engine.

[biodiesel]

I've been looking round at running a Mercedes on SVO (not biodiesel, too complicated atm) and I'd like your opinions on what I've found so far.

I think the W124 (E class?) or possibly W123 (240/300??) is best with the om61x engine . I hope this is right. I have heard of others, especially the 200 and 300 but also 190. I have the feeling that I've just made a fool of myself so I hope these numbers mean something to you.

I've heard the 300 recieving high praise, is this deserved or do you prefer a different model?

I would like to make the least amount of modifications possible as I have heard it is possible to run them unmodified, what do you recon? Lots of questions I'm afraid.

Thanks

 

[Chazchuzzlewitt]

well, I can tell you my om606-powered E300 124 series runs fine on veggie.

 

[BarryG]

well, I can tell you my om606-powered E300 124 series runs fine on veggie.

As will my C250


Barry

 

[Hibbo]

Any Merc that is:
a) A diesel (you'd be surprised! ) and
b) DOESN'T say CDI on the back
will be fine on Veggie.

 

[njpumphrey]

Hello,

I had a w123 240TD which ran on SVO fine with no modifications. It grumbled when starting, but then it had really slow glow plugs anyway. Once started it actually ran much smoother on SVO than diesel. I registered with HM Revenue and Customs as a fuel producer and paid the duty on the SVO I used, to be on the safe side.

I now have a 1994 E300 24v diesel estate, but haven't dared try SVO in it yet. CHAZ or Hibbo, I would be interested if you needed to make any modifications to get yours to run, or if you have any problems, especially in winter? Do you run 100% SVO or a mixture?

Cheers,

 

[Hibbo]

I have yet put any veg in my E300D, I am in the process of converting it properly with a twin tank setup and heat exchanger. (see my 'electronic questions' thread in the benz bin', I think the third page has a description and flow diagram)

The om606 engine is of the same design as the om617 in that it uses prechamber indirect injection and has in inline IP, so it'll have no probs handling veggie.

That said, (and the reason I'm doing a proper conversion) is that no matter how veg-capable an engine is (and Merc ones are THE best) I still don't like the idea of cold veg spraying (glooping?) from a cold injector onto cold cylinder walls when starting from cold in winter.

Cold starting ability depends on how good your glowplugs and injectors are, and on how much compression your engine has. Start at 50:50 (or maybe 70veg:25:diesel:5petrol if you're feeling adventurous) in this weather and see how you get on. 100% in summer should be fine.

Don't forget you're fuel filters will probably clog after the first tankfull as the veg cleans out all the crud from the tank.

Veg on!

 

[Chazchuzzlewitt]

I ran 100% veggie in my E300D last summer with no mods or problems... apart from that it smells like a chip shop Generally I put up to 50% in when the weather is warm (straight veggie oil from the supermarket) and it seems quite happy on it.

In the winter I tend not to use any just incase it gels and clogs things up.

 

[biodiesel]

Cheers

So which is better the om606 or om617 and why? If there's not much difference then tell me and I'll not bother.

I'm deffinatly going to fit a fuel heater and I'm rapidly getting converted to the idea of a twin tank system but I havn't decided on that.

Is it best to change the glow plugs and the injectors? If so where do you get them from and how much do they cost?

 

[Parrot of Doom]

om617:

The om606 is a more modern, more powerful engine. I've chucked SVO in it with no issues.

 

[Hibbo]

Great picture Parrot!

As has been said, ALL Merc diesels are great on SVO. The om617 is simpler and very easy to work on. It also leaves loads of room under the bonnet for extra tanks and stuff be fitted.

The 601/2/3 as used in pre E-class w124s and w201s is a bit more refined and hence powerful/economical.

The om606 is more refined again, but 'inconvenient' to work on compared to the 617.

They will all run SVO, it's down to what car/age you want/can afford.

 

[biodiesel]

Hey, excellent, that's fantastic. Cheers parrot of doom, i'm really chuffed with that picture!

 

[Flying Scot]

Great picture Parrot!

As has been said, ALL Merc diesels are great on SVO. The om617 is simpler and very easy to work on. It also leaves loads of room under the bonnet for extra tanks and stuff be fitted.

The 601/2/3 as used in pre E-class w124s and w201s is a bit more refined and hence powerful/economical.

The om606 is more refined again, but 'inconvenient' to work on compared to the 617.

They will all run SVO, it's down to what car/age you want/can afford.

OK give us the FULL run down on these engines No Clys Capacity BHP TORQUE year of manufacture and models they are fitted in. OR tell me where to find this info.

I would like a nice estate to replace my Volvo 850 Dont expect it to handle as well or be as fast but then i have the SL500 for fun. A TURBO would be nice but i dont think i am into a LHD so that rules it out - i 'think' i am looking at a W124 a 250/300TD age up to and pre 1994? price is not the BIG issue and 'preferred' is the multivalve engine but only because that is what i have heard and read - lots of room in the engine compartment would be great for working on the beastie and fuel heating and the three tank solution MINIMUM lectronics more like an origional mini than any of the latests modern computer laden cars i mentioned the three tank solution earlier on this or another thread cant remember senility creeping in he he

Thanks

 

[Flying Scot]

OK give us the FULL run down on these engines No Clys Capacity BHP TORQUE year of manufacture and models they are fitted in. OR tell me where to find this info.

I would like a nice estate to replace my Volvo 850 Dont expect it to handle as well or be as fast but then i have the SL500 for fun. A TURBO would be nice but i dont think i am into a LHD so that rules it out - i 'think' i am looking at a W124 a 250/300TD age up to and pre 1994? price is not the BIG issue and 'preferred' is the multivalve engine but only because that is what i have heard and read - lots of room in the engine compartment would be great for working on the beastie and fuel heating and the three tank solution MINIMUM lectronics more like an origional mini than any of the latests modern computer laden cars i mentioned the three tank solution earlier on this or another thread cant remember senility creeping in he he

Thanks

quick google found some STUFF

http://www.w124performance.com/movies/OM606/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Mercedes-Benz_engines


still looking

 

[Flying Scot]

Possible MB SVO heater he he

http://www.w124performance.com/movies/OM606/om606_fuelHeatr.mpeg

 

[Hibbo]

OK give us the FULL run down on these engines No Clys Capacity BHP TORQUE year of manufacture and models they are fitted in. OR tell me where to find this info.

I would like a nice estate to replace my Volvo 850 Dont expect it to handle as well or be as fast but then i have the SL500 for fun. A TURBO would be nice but i dont think i am into a LHD so that rules it out - i 'think' i am looking at a W124 a 250/300TD age up to and pre 1994? price is not the BIG issue and 'preferred' is the multivalve engine but only because that is what i have heard and read - lots of room in the engine compartment would be great for working on the beastie and fuel heating and the three tank solution MINIMUM lectronics more like an origional mini than any of the latests modern computer laden cars i mentioned the three tank solution earlier on this or another thread cant remember senility creeping in he he

Thanks

Right then, from memory (ie wrong)

The om615/6/7 was used in the w115 and w123 and g-wagen. om616 is 2.4 litre 4cyl, om617 3litre 5cyl.
The om617 in my w123 300D is rated at 88HP
Absolutely indestructible engine, (iron) top and bottom, the only place they wear is the bores.
It is quite thirsty if you like to cruise at illegal motorway speeds.

om601/2/3 was used in the w201 and w124 up until the facelift w124 E-class was introduced (1993ish)
601 = 2litre 4cyl, 602 = 2.5L 5cyl, 603 = 3L 6cyl
The 602 in my 190D was rated at 92HP, I think the 3L 603 is around 110-115HP

The facelift w124 uses the om605/6, same setup as the 602/3 but with 4 valves per cylinder. The 2.5L 605 was used in the C-class and the 606 was also used in the w210 right up until the introduction of the CDI engines
I think the normally aspirated 606 produces about 130HP.
I think E250Ds are pretty rare.

I've ran all three generations and have had no real problems with any of them.
There is loads of room around the 617 in the w123 engine bay, no stupid belt idlers and tensioners, and everything is easy to get to, including all the fuel lines. (And the glowplugs come out without a fight - well they did on mine )

The engine bay on my w124 is quite crowded and nearly everything on the 606 is hidden under the honking big intake manifold. I've also read glowplug horror stories on here and in the car's file of receipts and paperwork . Mine need doing too........

How much are you looking to spend? Have you priced any up yet?


At the next meet I'll let you take my E300D for a spin and I'll take your SL (or even your Actos!)

 

[Flying Scot]

SVO conversion

http://biodiesel.infopop.cc/eve/forums?a=tpc&s=447609751&f=159605551&m=488108643&r=488108643

 

[pcman_jh]

SVO - my experiences - some bedtime reading...

I have a W210 1999 E300 TD estate, automatic - bought it specifically as it has the last of the non-CDI engines, but it's not been without its troubles...

(I had a 1994 C250D which is the same engine except for one cylinder missing and it didn't have a turbo. I ran this by mixing straight into the tank - 25% veg in winter to as much as 70% veg in the middle of summer. No hassles what so ever, apart from the odd lumpy first cold start whcih soon smoothed out. Must have did about 10000 miles before selling due to age)

Anyway to the E Class -
Mixing SVO (Costco or Makros cheapest rapeseed Veg oil in 20ltr drums) up to 50% straight in the tank. After about 1 month of this, starting noticing the injectors getting noisy even when hot. Also started getting fuel starvation - althought I didn't know this at the time - engine missing badly, and sometimes the odd very alarming 'metallic' noise - clean underpants required. Cleaning with injector cleaner appeared to make it quieter, but didn't last all that long.

Decided to go for 2 tank conversion as I was thinking about longevity of the engine, so bought the DieselVeg 2 tank system (£530 by the time I bought additoinal fule pipes as the supplied weren't long enough). Start on diesel, then swich to main tank (with Veg oil, diluted with about 10% diesel) when the engine is hot. Was still getting bad fuel starvation on first cold start of day. Any hill, and I mean any hill, would have it struggling to get about 30mph if this were within the first 5 miles. This meant I couldn't venture onto any dual carriageways/motorways, otherwise I stuck out like a sore thumb, and potentially dangerous.

Also started noticing injectors were getting very noisy, particulary when cold. Decided to get injectors refurbished as the car had done 105,000 (about 8000 on a mixture of SVO). Injectors noise was like night and day after refitting, but still bad fuel starvation on first start of day, or if it had been left off for a few hours. I hadn't diagnosed this as fuel starvation at the time as there was a lot of white smoke (easy to identify this as a sympton now - isn't hindsight wonderful!!).

Realised it was fuel starvation by changing the filter, and hey presto, (almost) as good as new. The car was still a bit noisy (injectors / tappey noise) when cold which makes you (me) drive slower until fully heated.

Changed the filter after only 1000 miles, then fuel starvation within 100 miles of changing it!! Was about to give up, when I read about gelling when cold, rather than choked fuel filter.

It's worth emphasing that a lot of fuel starvation when cold is actaully gelling of the residue SVO in the filter even although you'll be switched to diesel!! This is proven because once fully heated it's fine (the filter fully heated and not just what the engine temperature is).

Decided to fork out another £80 for one of DieselVeg's silicon based fuel filter heater. Wired this in and it transforms the first cold run of the day. You have to be slightly careful not to hammer the acceleration but it makes a notable difference. This means that a fuel filter will now get about 7 - 9000 miles, rather than what I thought was an original 1000 (which turned out to be due to gelling, and not choking).

Injector noise was still bothering me - nothing as bad as before but a slight tappey noise when labouring the engine, even slightly. Read on a forum that injectors can take as much as 4 - 5000 miles to bed in and, fingers crossed, this appears to be the case. After almost 10000 miles since refurbishment (6000 after 2 tank conversion) they're pretty quiet now, with the odd moment of slight tappetyness.

on 2 more observations to go, if you're still interested...

At various stages in the early days I'd get the odd loss of power, nothing too dramatic like it cutting out, just no more power even if trying to floor it. I was running on 100% veg at this point (after the conversion) and have realised you really need to add a minimum of 10% diesel as it appears to help combustion and hence power.

Thinking everything was settled/understood now, I've noticed it's been using oil - I know because the 'engine oil has reached low level' warning came on! It's never used oil for the 1st 10000 miles I had it. I can't see obvious oil being burnt in the exhaust from the rear view mirror, but have also recently been getting intermitten white smoke at first start of the day for 20/30 seconds. It's also occassionaly been really quite lumpy as it a glow plug is down for the first few seconds. It's been OK all of this week, but was really lumpy only at tickover last Saturday even after 2 miles. It was OK the next again day though. I've still to get to the bottom of this - possible causes being loss of compression in a cylinder (explains oil loss) and possible lumpy start, or a glow plug down (althouhg light on dash doesn't come on again) but this doesn't explain the oil usage.

The car always starts first touch of the key, and has never left me stranded.

Definately one for the technies within us and I hope you've found this useful.

 

[Flying Scot]

Right then, from memory (ie wrong)

The om615/6/7 was used in the w115 and w123 and g-wagen. om616 is 2.4 litre 4cyl, om617 3litre 5cyl.
The om617 in my w123 300D is rated at 88HP
Absolutely indestructible engine, (iron) top and bottom, the only place they wear is the bores.
It is quite thirsty if you like to cruise at illegal motorway speeds.

om601/2/3 was used in the w201 and w124 up until the facelift w124 E-class was introduced (1993ish)
601 = 2litre 4cyl, 602 = 2.5L 5cyl, 603 = 3L 6cyl
The 602 in my 190D was rated at 92HP, I think the 3L 603 is around 110-115HP

The facelift w124 uses the om605/6, same setup as the 602/3 but with 4 valves per cylinder. The 2.5L 605 was used in the C-class and the 606 was also used in the w210 right up until the introduction of the CDI engines
I think the normally aspirated 606 produces about 130HP.
I think E250Ds are pretty rare.

I've ran all three generations and have had no real problems with any of them.
There is loads of room around the 617 in the w123 engine bay, no stupid belt idlers and tensioners, and everything is easy to get to, including all the fuel lines. (And the glowplugs come out without a fight - well they did on mine )

The engine bay on my w124 is quite crowded and nearly everything on the 606 is hidden under the honking big intake manifold. I've also read glowplug horror stories on here and in the car's file of receipts and paperwork . Mine need doing too........

How much are you looking to spend? Have you priced any up yet?


At the next meet I'll let you take my E300D for a spin and I'll take your SL (or even your Actos!)

OH so you got back from painting George Shrubs limos green then - OK having done some reading the 606 is lectronic (in so far as the injector pump has a few lectronic controls shut off and governor) and the 603 is not and is more like yesterdays technology something i can handle much easier he he BUT it would appear to get some 'decent' HP i may have to accept the lectronics and get a 606 OR was it only the 606 Turbos that had the lectronic pump controls and an EMS? Is the 2.5 605 a 5 cyl engine and the 606 3.0 a 6 cyl? I know the 606 is a 6 cyl.

BUT Sh*t 602/3 these are serous NON Horse Powers (then i guess i will not easily find a manual car so even less perky with the auto box) my wee Fiat 1.7TD has 70 BHP so the Power to Weight Ratio must be miles ahead of a W124. 70 HP out of 1.7 and a Turbo is not a lot of HP (and the engine is also built to last) even in a wee car but OOODLES of torque though and pulls like a pack of eager huskies once the turbo is spooled up at 1,500+ RPM. Also the rotary pump seems to be having no issues with 50/50 D/SVO not even in the frozen north of Glen Coe. Back to W124's - i have not looked hard at any cars yet nor driven one however with these sort of HP figures driving one could i suspect be a deal breaker so i guess i better do that and fast - re driving the SL or the Actros i think you have more chance of borrowing Malcolms car i am NOT a good passenger but i am sure i could manage to sit with you while you drive the 300D and then i will return the favour in the SL but maybe not as then i might need a new passenger seat cushion

 

[Flying Scot]

<BIG SNIP>

on 2 more observations to go, if you're still interested...

At various stages in the early days I'd get the odd loss of power, nothing too dramatic like it cutting out, just no more power even if trying to floor it. I was running on 100% veg at this point (after the conversion) and have realised you really need to add a minimum of 10% diesel as it appears to help combustion and hence power.

Thinking everything was settled/understood now, I've noticed it's been using oil - I know because the 'engine oil has reached low level' warning came on! It's never used oil for the 1st 10000 miles I had it. I can't see obvious oil being burnt in the exhaust from the rear view mirror, but have also recently been getting intermitten white smoke at first start of the day for 20/30 seconds. It's also occassionaly been really quite lumpy as it a glow plug is down for the first few seconds. It's been OK all of this week, but was really lumpy only at tickover last Saturday even after 2 miles. It was OK the next again day though. I've still to get to the bottom of this - possible causes being loss of compression in a cylinder (explains oil loss) and possible lumpy start, or a glow plug down (althouhg light on dash doesn't come on again) but this doesn't explain the oil usage.

The car always starts first touch of the key, and has never left me stranded.

Definately one for the technies within us and I hope you've found this useful.

interesting and useful post my Fiat is definitely quieter and smoother running on a D/SVO mix 'I THOUGHT' SVO was 'a better fuel' than pump Diesel a better lubricant and higher octane with a smoother burn - it has a different viscosity so i am told it is worthwhile to tweak the injectors to break open at a higher pressure to give good (better) atomisation of the SVO. I cant see or understand why running on SVO would damage the engine and cause it to burn oil unless of course this is mileage related so not directly related to the use of SVO except that you have been using this to get to the present mileage.

 

[Bolide]

The US-spec 606 engine is rated at 134 HP (SAE) at 5000 rpm and 155 ft/lb at 2600 rpm. It's a very different beast to the earlier engines

The 250 (605) five-cylinder engine appeared in a few W124 saloons but I think most were 300s. The estate I've only seen in the UK as a 300 (606) six

It's a good engine but they do vary from car to car. I suspect this is due to some cars losing compression and feeling flat. The EGR and resonance manifold vacuum systems don't always work so that's worth looking out for

All-in-all, I rate the 606 very highly. I drove an (old) 250 for 10 years and loved it - but the 606 moved the game on

Nick Froome
www.w124.co.uk