Their clutch tightens on my wallet!

[Sprint'n'Go]

AM I ABOUT TO GET STUNG?

I have a Sprinter with the Sprintshift automated gearbox. For a few months I have been getting a minor juddering from the clutch when taking up drive. Merc looked at it a couple of weeks ago (days before the engine blew up, but thats a different story), plugged in the computer and messed about with a few of the parameters and then said see how it goes.

In the meantime they have replaced the engine and I was asked at the time if I wanted them to fit a new clutch while they were at it (at my expense). My obvious reply was no chance! at 100k and considering the way I use the van and my trackrecord with long lasting clutches It should be as new, so they could examine it and change it under warranty if it was faulty but otherwise put it back.

In the last week or so the clutch action has deteriorated rapidly with much snatching and bouncing from the transmission unless drive is engaged just right (I'm getting good at this and have covered 2500 miles in the last 10 days).

The dealer now says it is showing all the signs of the fly wheel failing (twin mass flywheel) and the box will have to come out so the clutch can be checked/replaced.

Now for the ugly part. The van is still in warranty but the dealer says the warranty may not cover a replacement clutch at 105k and with just weeks left in the warranty, we won't know until it comes out so they can see if it is all worn and burnt. I have argued that as it is automated I cannot have worn the clutch out with bad driving and you don't cover 105k in under 3 years stop-starting around a town centre so IT MUST BE A WARRANTY FAULT.

He then gave me 3 possible outcomes

1, Mercedes cover it under warranty
2, Mercedes contribute a portion of the repair cost
3, I get landed with the whole bill of approx £200 for clutch, £450 for flywheel, £150 for combined release bearing/slave cylinder all plus fitting then vat on top.

After this conversation and once I had calmed down a bit, I think I see what he was trying to say without insulting me. There must be owners out there who might think that as the warranty is nearly up and with 100k on the clock why not intentionally wreck the clutch and get a new one for free? So to cover themselves Mercedes cannot automatically say a clutch failure will be a warranty fault without further investigation.

I assume that the clutch was examined as the engine was changed? so surely it cannot have worn out in the following 4000 miles and therefore must have further developed the fault I started to notice about 10-15k previously and this was not spotted at the engine swap?

Should I let Merc start the job as once it is in bits I will be bound to their repair costs or should I cut my losses and book it into an Independent?

(a further thought has occurred to me, it may not be the clutch but may be the control/actuation system or even contamination introduced during the engine swap or earlier gearbox replacement(at 85k).

Any thoughts on this please.

 

[psmart]

Given all the faults you've had on your Sprinter.... pop along to see a lawyer before doing anything.

I completely agree about knackering the clutch, I used to regularly eat clutches, due to my agressive driving style in manuals and holding on the clutch at lights/hills etc. On the C220 seq, no can do - you are completely out of control. Given that theyve had gearbox replaced, engine replaced - whats to says they havent contaminated the plates? Ive (long time ago... 10+ years) replaced several clutches, and its very easy to put greasy palms on clutch, pressure plate, flywheel, it only takes a smudging of oil/grease to cause a little slippage and then knacker the flywheel!

 

[Sprint'n'Go]

I completely agree about knackering the clutch, I used to regularly eat clutches, due to my agressive driving style in manuals and holding on the clutch at lights/hills etc. On the C220 seq, no can do - you are completely out of control.

Not completely true, You can hold it on a hill with the accelorator. If the hill was steep enough and you did it for long enough I am sure this would cook the clutch. Although i do seem to remember reading somewhere (possibly the owners manual) that if you do this for long enough the system will start to 'bounce' the clutch to warn you?

What could I expect a lawyer to do for me? The van is booked into Merc for Monday so I don't have a lot of time and workload means I need a quick solution.

 

[tom7035]

How about a quick visit and explanation to your solicitor tomorrow, and have one of his business cards attached to the garage worksheet as the garage's point of contact in the event of any queries regarding these "warranty repairs" they are carrying out?

 

[psmart]

Not completely true, You can hold it on a hill with the accelorator. If the hill was steep enough and you did it for long enough I am sure this would cook the clutch. Although i do seem to remember reading somewhere (possibly the owners manual) that if you do this for long enough the system will start to 'bounce' the clutch to warn you?

What could I expect a lawyer to do for me? The van is booked into Merc for Monday so I don't have a lot of time and workload means I need a quick solution.

Different on our sequentronic, you can rev to go forward, but if your on a hill, you need to apply the brakes.... perhaps another fault on your long list?

As per tom7035, you know where you stand, why walk into the Lions den unprepared?

 

[Rory]

I don't think you have much choice but to let them do it, especially if the actual problem and therefore the extent of the work is unclear.
If they ask you to pay you could do so under duress, then sue them for the cost using the small claims court (moneyclaimonline).

 

[Sprint'n'Go]

Here's the plan

As per tom7035, you know where you stand, why walk into the Lions den unprepared?

I am all for being prepared but I think going in with all guns blazing may sour what is currently a beautiful relationship. I have always got on with the service Manager in question and since he has moved across Manchester to 'the other dealer' I have followed him and found service even better. Talk of solicitors is a sure way to upset everyone and lose any goodwill their may be (besides they make my flesh crawl).

I intend to allow them to go ahead with the work as I have every reason to believe the fault is not caused by me and will be covered by the warranty. His warning must be the standard line when dealing with clutch faults as this is one of the components that can be badly affected by driving style and abuse.

I will drop the van off tomorrow and should know more by Monday lunchtime, I'll keep you informed.

 

[psmart]

solicitors is a sure way to upset everyone and lose any goodwill their may be (besides they make my flesh crawl).

Agreed, only ever used one once, back in 2001, when 2 business partners pushed me beyond acceptable limits.
...but with what you've gone through on the Sprinter, you must have the patience of jobe! My Ducato 2.8JTD hasnt done me a day wrong, alebit its not doing the mileage your doing.

Perhaps you can change number plates with a new one whilst your their ... sure they wouldnt notice.

 

[Sprint'n'Go]

...but with what you've gone through on the Sprinter, you must have the patience of jobe!

Perhaps you can change number plates with a new one whilst your their ... sure they wouldnt notice.

Yes, I have always been very patient and polite as 'these things happen' but I am now sure that the chain of faults has far surpassed reasonable levels. The question is what do I do about it?

I have continued in the hope that thing's would settle down and the warranty would eventually have sorted all the problems but this isn't happening and with a warranty that expires on the 6th Aug I have to fear for my future wealth.

I have discussed buying a third party warranty with my friendly service manager but to be honest my suspicious side believes it would not be worth the paper it was written on and everything that was excluded would fail

I think I should write to MBUK and I have these acceptable solutions.

1, extend the bumper to bumper warranty by 12 months for free
2, compensate me generously for all the inconvienience and downtime suffered with repeated trips to the workshop
3,offer me a serious discount on a new sprinter to start again with a hopefully better built vehicle.
4, buy back my van at a VERY generous price (and crush it) and allow me to walk away into the arms of another manufacturer.

1, would be great.
2, would be a gamble as faults could more than swallow any compensation given.
3, As I negotiated a 30%+ discount on the current van and have nothing in the budget for replacement due to planning on at least 5 yrs use it would have to be serious (think 40-50%). On top of buying the chassis, it costs approx 3.5k to have a body built.
4, I must be mad but I really can't see myself driving anything other than a Merc van and the lifecycle issue in point 3 would still be a problem. I can't take out a wage if I keep spending all the money on flash vans!

Maybe I would be wise to employ the services of a solicitor to negotiate with Mercedes for me.

 

[Sprint'n'Go]

Update

I got the van back yesterday complete with new clutch kit, fly wheel and release bearing/slave cylinder, ALL UNDER WARRANTY. I spoke to the mechanic that did the job and as expected he confirmed that the friction plate was as new. He even questioned wether a new clutch had been fitted at some point which as far as I know it hasn't.

So another happy ending? well maybe not, It is probably my paranoia but I think there is still an almost indiscernable judder when the clutch is taking up drive sometimes. SURELY THERE CAN'T BE, with the new gearbox, new engine and now the knew clutch? Maybe problems like these are the reason they have dropped the sprintshift gearbox which if perfected would be the best thing since sliced bread IMO.

I will have to do a few thousand miles and see how it goes.

 

[Rory]

Presumeably you have reported to them that it still judders? I'd do it by email, and ask for an aknowledgement, so you have a record that they know.

 

[psmart]

If the judder is mainly on first to second gear engagement, then its the same as the C-Class Sequentronic. I get around this by blipping the Accelerator.

 

[Sprint'n'Go]

If the judder is mainly on first to second gear engagement, then its the same as the C-Class Sequentronic. I get around this by blipping the Accelerator.

You hit the nail on the head, this is how I first noticed the fault many miles ago. When in very slow rolling traffic (perhaps as approaching a roundabout) the box will stay in 2nd unless I came to a complete stop, then if I touched the accelorator gently to move a bit further forward the system would slip the clutch a bit more than normal until the speed allowed a complete lockup in 2nd. The judder was very minor to start with but progressed to a point were I would manually select 1st to avoid it. It then devoloped quite rapidly in the last 4-5k and was so bad that even setting off in first could cause the engine to jump and bounce around as if it were about to fall out. In all it has probably taken 15-20k(4-6months) to go from being noticed to becomed almost undrivable.

 

[psmart]

You hit the nail on the head, this is how I first noticed the fault many miles ago. When in very slow rolling traffic (perhaps as approaching a roundabout) the box will stay in 2nd unless I came to a complete stop, then if I touched the accelorator gently to move a bit further forward the system would slip the clutch a bit more than normal until the speed allowed a complete lockup in 2nd. The judder was very minor to start with but progressed to a point were I would manually select 1st to avoid it. It then devoloped quite rapidly in the last 4-5k and was so bad that even setting off in first could cause the engine to jump and bounce around as if it were about to fall out. In all it has probably taken 15-20k(4-6months) to go from being noticed to becomed almost undrivable.

I dont think there is much that can be done, its either a software fault (if we can get round it as a human, then its codeable in software) or an actuator which isnt linear enough. I've got used to 'working around' it, so it rarely happens, but I can see it as a big problem on your van, with the mileage, and more importantly, with the load.

Your the ideal test candidate for this type of box, unfortunately, it looks like Merc are no longer making it, so you can bet the software etc wont get better

 

[Sprint'n'Go]

They all do that sir!

So it is a 'characteristic' of the vehicle? If that is the case then I will live with it as it should only be a problem in another 100k when the new twin mass flywheel starts to detioriorate again, at which point (if I still own the van as was my original intention) I will throw in a flywheel on its own to see if that cures it.

 

[psmart]

You are indeed correct.....

So it is a 'characteristic' of the vehicle?

Just driven the C tonight, and yes, I can confirm, the car tries to hold onto 2nd when really it should go down to 1st, and as a consequence, you get a judder. Cure, as you rightly outlined, is to use manual mode. I reckon with your bigger engine/power/torque and the loads you carry, this could well be a serious problem. Not so much on the C, being a 220 in a lighter shell.

Its software, get back the programmer and shoot him... probably some ultra bright guy in Bangalore who wouldnt notice the problem in the psychotic traffic they have their..... either that or a Russian programmer, to high on Vodka to have noticed

 

[television]

Just driven the C tonight, and yes, I can confirm, the car tries to hold onto 2nd when really it should go down to 1st, and as a consequence, you get a judder. Cure, as you rightly outlined, is to use manual mode. I reckon with your bigger engine/power/torque and the loads you carry, this could well be a serious problem. Not so much on the C, being a 220 in a lighter shell.

Its software, get back the programmer and shoot him... probably some ultra bright guy in Bangalore who wouldnt notice the problem in the psychotic traffic they have their..... either that or a Russian programmer, to high on Vodka to have noticed

On the 02 09 02 the B1,K1, K3 mini disc were changed to eliminate any judder
Give me your Email and I will send you the speed range check, odd thing is it is the same transmision as used in most 722.6 and the fault is not shown on any car.

malcolm

 

[Yeti]

These dual mass flywheels are a major pain in the ass.

We have them on all of our taxis (Skodas and VWs) and one has had 3 new flywheels and 5 clutches. The vibration from the gubbed flywheel has also damaged exhausts, starters and other parts. All from something that's supposed to make the vehicle smoother.

 

[Helmet Vonthrob]

Perhaps they've missed and engine mount?

Steve H. - I question whether this "2003 Sprinter 316 with all the extras, SERIOUSLY GOOD (and seriously long list of warranty repairs! )" is a bit of an oxymoron.

 

[Sprint'n'Go]

Perhaps they've missed an engine mount?

It should be going back to the dealer at the end of this week for further attention as the fault is now definite and shows particularly after a few hours run (when everything is hot, hot, hot?). It seems to be almost perfect when cold so doesn't show up very well when the dealer takes it for a test drive.

I did bring up the possibility of engine mounts just before the clutch was changed and a mechanic dissapeared into the pit below with a pry bar and reapeared 5-10 minutes later to say mounts were ok. I will press them to change them as part of any further remedial work carried out as I do think they are losing their effectiveness.

It is puzzling that after they changed every clutch component it can still be faulty, but to a lesser extent, which perhaps points the finger in another direction?

Steve H. - I question whether this "2003 Sprinter 316 with all the extras, SERIOUSLY GOOD (and seriously long list of warranty repairs! )" is a bit of an oxymoron.

Apart from the faults it is the best van on the road, supremely comfortable, powerful and enjoyable to drive even after 10-12 hours on the road. The only way it could be better was if it was a panel van instead of a whacking great luton box! I can drive 500 miles one day and still relish the prospect of going out to do the same the next day. Its that good.

Take a look at the pic's in the owners gallery