Total newcomer, advice from scratch...

[Blue_Straggler]

Hello all. I found this forum on Thursday night after making the final decision to fix up my current car one last time and sell it on.
To the point:
I am looking to buy something for around £1000 that has some individuality, practicality and longevity. So I fairly quickly settled on the notion of an 'old-skool' Mercedes. I see there's plenty on the market dating from between 1980 - 1994 (roughly) with 100k - 180k on the clock, coming in at this sort of price (obviousy some higher depending on condition etc.)

Now, here's the thing, and here's where you all may like me as I am "fresh blood". If I'm honest, I don't yet REALLY know what I am after. I just had vague notions of "tough old Mercedes that will run and run and run". I thought it might speed things up if I ask for some advice and opinions here. I did do a search of the forums but it didn't help me all that much.

Criteria from my end:
I am single, no kids, don't really have to cart big things around that much - so an estate would be a bit redundant I think.
I am not a mechanical enthusiast in any way, I just want a car in decent condition that will run OK.
I don't particularly have a "lead right foot" so "zippiness" is not necessarily an issue.
I find the affordable models after around 1988 to be a little bland in shape (the 190 series, for example).
I have vague and woolly "green" notions i.e. I'd feel guilty driving myself around in a 3.8l car

I am not inflexible on any of the above criteria, of course! e.g. I see there are plenty of estates on the market, many of them diesel which is good...but I'd also assume that, mile for mile, an estate with a given engine capacity has had an effectively harder life than a saloon (assuming that the owner got an estate because he/she has heavy loads to cart around e.g. larger family?)
And a bigger engine may have more life in it so I needn't actually rule out a 380? And if those "bland-looking" 190s etc are fantastic in some other respect, I'll give them a second look (I did come into this looking for something with "character" though!)

I could perhaps stretch to £2000 if that's deemed necessary (some poking around local ads, Autotrader and eBay suggest that £1300 might be a sensible start price) but to be honest I've been hooked by a few ads showing stuff in the £650 - £800 range. I want to budget to allow potential future work rather than paying high and assuming nothing will need doing (this is the mistake I made last time - VW Polo Saloon, assumed it would be rock solid, it's just been an awful money pit and not a particularly special car apart from the unusual body shape).

At the moment I am lured toward the 230 CE 2-door pillarless "pimp / Mafia mobile" from the early 1980s. A beautiful-looking model just sold on eBay tonight for £821, if the timing had been better maybe it would be mine, but I've only been in this "game" for two days, no chance to go and look at it and no money till I sort something with the Polo! Did you folk see it? This should link to the finished auction: http://tinyurl.com/f2w9k

Basically I'd really appreciate any advice or opinions from you good folk as you certainly seem to know your stuff. I realise that by the nature of Internet forums I'll get some conflicting opinions, but I can hopefully sort through these and find my own "level".
Everything - what model might be suitable, any stinkers, any changes during a model's production run (i.e. is the 1983 such-and-such worse than its 1982 equivalent), what to look out for, etc.

Many thanks, sorry for such a "demanding" first post but I hope you have some fun with it! I for one love "spending other peoples' money" by proxy in the fields I know about!

Blue Straggler

 

[Myros]

1st things first

welcome aboard.
2nd, have a look at the classified section of the MBOA site, not the forums. You can see all sorts of MBs for sale there.
3d, down to WH Smug and buy yourself a copy of Mercedes Enthusiast. That has loads of info and ads of all sorts.
4th, get to know Google well. Type in whatever MB model and see what links come up. Some of the specialist Mercedes sellers might have someyhing within your budget.
Don't get hung up in the green thing. Unless you buy one of the frugal turbo-diesels, you'll end up burning more fule in a smaller engined MB than a big one.
I have a C280 which gives me 26-28 around town, and a 500 SL which gives me about 22-24 , and a 300 TE which gives about 25. I drive them pretty much the same, but sitting at the lights in a 5 litre is obviously nore expensive than in a 1.8.

Good luck with the search.

 

[television]

On the bit about estates having a harder life, that is not so with MB they were far too expensive to be used as a van, I know many well to do people who bought them as a status symbol and they never carried anything other than a dog in their life, just tke a look inside one, I agree with Myros very much that get a decent size engine, its worth every penny.

Malcolm

 

[Blue_Straggler]

Thanks

Thanks for the two replies so far. Thought I might get a few more replies but hey ho.
Myros - I have been reading up this week. My local WH Smug (thanks for that, like it!) doesn't stock Mercedes Enthusiast. I picked up Practical Classics which was an enjoyable read but not too relevant to me wanting a practical reliable easy-to-maintain motor.
I probably need to steer clear of the real early 1980s models despite their aesthetic retro appeal. Having said I am against the clunky boxy shape of the post 1987 models, I now wonder whether a 190D 2.5 might not be the ideal "compromise"?
I did indeed use Google as my friend and, what a surprise, Ken Rockwell who is internationally renowned for his no-nonsense views on photography and cameras, has a detailed page about his 190D 2.5 diesel.
http://www.kenrockwell.com/190d/index.htm
(also found a little archived column by Quentin Wilson singing its praises)

Now, one of the concerns that came up during my weekly pondering, was the mpg. I appreciate that these are heavy old solid cars of course. But Ken reports very good figures (and the American gallon is a bit smaller than the UK gallon isn't it).

Some poking around on autotrader suggests that about £1500 is the going rate for one from around 1990-93 with 120 - 150k miles on the clock. That's beyond my original projected budget but if it will buy me some confidence, that's good!

So my remaining questions amount to:
Is the 2.5 diesel going to be a better buy than a 2.0 petrol?
Am I barking up the right tree or buying into a potential frustrating money pit?
Any preference on auto v manual (I am totally accustomed to manual, but I am reading various stuff about some cars are more suited to their autoboxes)?
What is said to be the "cutoff" year where Mercedes starting having shoody production problems? I'm guessing 91-92 but can't nail it down. If I'm right then I guess I should be looking at J-reg or older?
Should I forget it and buy a Chrysler Neon?

Thanks, and I hope my queries aren't annoying!

 

[Blobcat]

Any make of car of that age can and probably will have it's fair share of issues. MB's were not cheap cars in their day and I would not expect to run any MB on a Ford budget. Buy one because you love it not because you think it will be cheap to run.

 

[Bolide]

A 190 2.5 Diesel will be a friend for life if you can find a good one. It's the same engine and mostly the same running gear as in a 250 W124

The diesels do attract a premium so don't discount petrol cars. The 190 2.6 is becoming a bit of a cult car now as it's smooth (6-cylinder) and quite pokey. Early W124 300s are smooth, comfortable and normally very well-equipped but the mpg is likely to worry. A 230 or a later 280 would be a better bet

Be really fussy when you buy. There are plenty of cars around and really sharp, well-maintained cars are still out there

Nick Froome
www.w124.co.uk

 

[hawk20]

First decide you want auto. Well over 90% of Mercs are auto. So you will get more choice. And they are great auto boxes. Only Mercs have almost the same preformance and fuel economy whether auto or manual. All formula one are now auto. No one with electric windows wants to go back to winding. Once you have a Merc auto, bet you'll never want to go back. Foot operated parking brake is lovely with auto but lousy for hill starts with manual. I'd say if you want a manual car, buy another make. If want auto, Merc is by far the best.

E class offers that seriously useful extra space and once age has come the variation in price is not great. The E is roomy, majestic and the bees knees to many. Diesels do huge miles but the old ones are nothing like as refined as todays genius creations. And it's only recently that diesels have sold in big numbers (as they've got better and as the tax advantages of recent years have encouraged) so much less choice of diesel older cars. AND the old petrols are wonderful. Diesels have been totally transformed in recent years. Petrols far less so. Drive an E280 and that straight six is one of the finest motors ever. Autocar said it was the best engine of any size, of any make, in any car, anywhere in the world. I loved it. Someone said as you went through the rev range it was like tearing silk. The main thing is to be lucky! I know folk who've done 300k miles and hardly lifted a spanner. In France met several people who'd done 500,000kms on original engine. Good luck.

 

[Blue_Straggler]

Thanks for these additional new replies. I am certainly not discounting petrol. i read the interesting 'Diesel myths' thread, and I am aware that looking solely at an mpg figure is not the way to decide (I think a lot of my colleagues do exactly that though!). Nick - yes the diesels seem to be about 40% dearer than what I presume to be their petrol equivalents. On the same mileage, which is likely to be in better condition? I wonder if it's the petrol (don't diesels run hotter etc?)

I didn't realise such a high proportion of Mercedes were autos. I've never driven an auto but am certainly not against the idea, especially if it's received-wisdom to get one.

The older 230s and 280s look nice but I wonder if I "deserve" one!
I just locked onto the 190D 2.5 based on a few glowing testimonials.
I am a sedate driver so those who say it's a "boring" car to drive (e.g. the Honest John website), aren't really putting me off

And I know all too well about "luck" - researched my last car for a while before buying, and must have ended up with a real "Friday afternoon rush job". Grr.

Blobcat I have taken your comments on board. I don't expect a Merc to be cheap to run but if I get a good deal when buying in the first place, I can make allowances for this. Despite my disparaging comments about "boxy" 190s, I am sure I WILL love just having a good Merc. When I was a child, we grewup with a succession of bangers as my father didn't like to spend money on cars (and I appreciate this actually). Cars I've owned so far have been a knackered 1987 Fiat Uno that I bought in 1999, it was farcical; a 1987 Citroen AX that I bought in late 2000 in a pub for £55 just after the Fiat blew up (actually a great car but felt vulnerable in it!), and my stinky bad luck ripoff VW Polo Saloon. It's time for me to have a refined ride in something smart. As a "poor" family when I was a kid, we dreamed of a Mercedes. I'd love to be able to give one to my mother if/when I finish with one. I am factoring this into my choice too. Which means automatic might well be essential, she's getting on a bit

Sorry for the rambling long posts, just thinking out loud. I'll try to be more concise....

 

[hawk20]

Sit in a manual and act out how you will do hill starts without three feet.
Then sit in modern traffic and ask why you should want to keep changing gear in stop-start traffic when a beautiful Merc box can do it for you. And if you want to change gear yourself, you can: just kick down or use the tiptronic.
It's a free country -well nearly) and if you put up the ante and have the good taste to choose one you deserve a 230/280. You'll be surprised how quickly it feels normal to have the three pointed star out there in front of you guiding the way. Lovely!

 

[Blue_Straggler]

Sit in a manual and act out how you will do hill starts without three feet.

Point taken I just have vague ill-informed notions about "less to go wrong and cheaper to fix/replace a manual"

(ironically the death of a manual gearbox on my Polo followed 7 months later by the death of the £880 replacement reconditioned one(*), has prompted me to seek out a "proper car" :-? )

Well I will look at those 280s and 230s. There's a BEAUTIFUL dark red 1983 230E on autotrader, one owner from new and apparently an everyday car but utterly pampered, the price looks good (under £1000)....BUT it has 278k on the clock. Can't afford to replace an engine when it dies within the next 20k (or 2k?!) miles so I'd MUCH prefer that car to go to an enthusiast who can garage it up if-and-when, and spend time sourcing him/herself a replacement engine.

Oh to hell with it, here's the text description from their ad. Go on convince me:
"1984 MERCEDES-BENZ 230 E,
278,000 miles, B reg. Automatic. Red with beige cloth interior. One keeper. Fully stamped MB main dealer service history (last 2 services with MB specialist). Electric sunroof (factory fitted), illuminated vanity mirrors in sun visors, power steering, central locking, electric passenger door mirror, original MB logo covers on steel wheels with Dunlop 175/80 R14 tyres, front (push button 2 position) & rear centre armrests, period push button Blaupunkt Melbourne MR23 Radio Cassette with roof aerial, rev counter, Zebrano wood fascia, three speed automatic transmission, unopened MB first aid kit, warning triangle and MB toolkit. MOT'd until November 2006 & Taxed until October 2006. Just had its latest 6,000 mile service. This pampered car was purchased new by my father in September 1984 from Sunningdale Car Carriage Company and used by him until his recent passing. It will make somebody a very nice first time/classic Mercedes. It has been used as an every day car, has always been properly maintained and is completely reliable. A great car in which to arrive (it has been used on occasion as a wedding car for family members)."
Photo http://tinyurl.com/q8j45

My magazine says 23mpg on these. I'm used to about 35mpg, but I intend to drive much less (can now take bus to work, and use the car for a "treat"...so i should "treat" myself to a nice one eh)

(* the gearbox is warrantied so I am not paying for the next replacement. but it's just time to move on, clearly I am not compatible with my charmless PanzerWagen)

 

[hawk20]

Others will know far more than I about high mileage cars. Sounds a lovely car and a real tribute to Merc but that is one big bundle of miles to have covered. My instinct would be that it must be near big spending -others will know- and that you could find a good one with a lot less miles covered. I've seen them with miles in the low hundreds for the money you are talking.

 

[Blue_Straggler]

Yes there's one with 84k for £1300 (trade not private)
But 84k sounds too LOW for a 22 year old car. Or am I being cynical? Maybe it was someone's Sunday treat car. It's in manky metallic green too And is 100k some sort of gasket milestone i.e. should I actually aim for 120k plus (checking service history to see if gasket's been done)?
Or just factor in that extra £1000 for when the time comes?

 

[turnipsock]

It looks an OK car but my 230TE has done 180,000 miles and is only a couple of years older, so I guess the milage is high on that one.

I'm not sure when MB started going downhill but my guess would have been 'M' or 'N' reg.

 

[flagstaff]

278,000 for a W123 is not at all unusual - the fact that it has a fully stamped service history is an incredible bonus. go and see the car, if you can, and then give us your impressions. it looks like one of those examples that a man treated better than his wife. just for the record, my first merc was a 1985 190D 2.0l (manual) - which i let go when it had 250,000 miles: the engine ran as sweetly as a (non-merc) car with a fifth of the mileage.

 

[Blobcat]

IMHO a car sat on the drive not been driven is much worse than regular long runs.

 

[Myros]

it's not the number of miles, it's the way they were driven

Our 300TE has 151k and sounds as sweet as a wristwatch. It just burns a little oil, I can smell it on the exhaust. I have 110k on our C280 and it's barely run in. 126k on the SL and it's just loosening up.
I did 190k on a four cylinder BMW 1800, and all that I ever had to do to the engine was replace the tappet adjusting bits ( I only needed to do one of those, but I do like a full set of these things). It would still be going if it hadn't been written off. Also just burned a bit of oil, from the valve guides.

Motroway cruisers are preferred, but even the m/ways can be a bit of a car park these days. Longer runs are better than shorter runs is the accepted wisdom.

 

[PINBALL]

And heres my tuppence worth...

Am now on my 3rd E class estate & with the biggest engine ever, a 280 for over a year which has proven to be the best model I've ever had with over 195k clocked.

This estate model was chosen for its enourmous capacity to accept large pinball / juke-boxes through its rear door with a sensibly made "truly flat all the way to the back metal protected edge" that few other estates could offer or even be similar, but with smaller apertures between the floor & top edge of the tailgate opening being 32".
Not even Volvo 740/240 850 or V70 had the height of Merc estate inside or the folding completely flat with metal supports under folding seats that keeps floor from either rising up or down dependant on cushioning for support, as with Ovlov or similar copy estates.

Hope to be putting up some photos in owners own cars section soon showing the machines being loaded into this beautifully designed peice of engineering with its swivel head 6 point tie down eyes fitted in the back floor.

Bought my E280 last March 95 with 188k on the clock for £2,000 through ex & mart from a back srteet motor dealer who promised a new MOT with it, & have never looked back.

History only goes back 6 years with fully stamped up service book from new.
At 155k car had undergone extensive engine repairs in an italian dealer amounting to over 4,500 euro's, which I take this to be the head gasket.

Being already fitted with the cheaper 'Witter' tow-bar, I took the plunge & am thankful I did.

Hope it helps,
Keith.

BTW: I have learnt the hard way (much like others on this forum) never to skimp on "factors" pattern made parts, and as soon as i could took the car to local indy to have a complete check-over for pos maintenance future probs AND A FULL 'A' SERVICE with all Merc supplies fitted & all Merc flexible belts swopped over for about £500 = well worth it!
Only prob has been heater blower goin up the pictures which cost £180 from merc & another £100 or so to fit at my local fitters.

 

[Blue_Straggler]

Thanks for the continued replies. I doubt I will get to go and look at the 278000 mile model, it's a long way away and I can't really do much until I sell my current car - I don't have the spare £1500 or whatever.

On a continuing quest to narrow down my choices...IF I were to plump for a 190 diesel am I to understand the following:
don't touch the 2.0, only the 2.5
don't consider a manual
thanks

Also I see the W124 chassis designation being bandied about like some sort of totemic guarantee of brilliance....but the 190s were on a W201. Is this "less good"? Will it make any difference to me given my car history (battered Fiat Uno, flighty Citroen AX, dull moneypit VW Polo Saloon)?
Finally do these older diesels run OK unmodified on processed vegetable oil?

Ta

 

[hawk20]

Finally do these older diesels run OK unmodified on processed vegetable oil?

Ta

They're quite good on ground up copies of the Daily Express mixed in with liberal quantities of camel dung from the Mongolian Desert but I wouldn't let it influence my choice of purchase.

 

[Blue_Straggler]

Oh I thought I posted this morning, must have got lost in the ether. Yes thanks hawk20 ask a silly question get a silly answer I guess!

Any opinions on my other questions?
I know I claim not to be hung up on fuel economy but anyway...I'm hearing 25mpg urban, 35mpg "on a run" for the 190E 2.0, and add 10mpg to each for the 2.5 diesel.

Are the manuals really THAT bad that I shouldn't even consider one?
And does this look as if the rear bumper is making an escape bid?
http://tinyurl.com/s89e6
(this is 190E 2.0 which is for sale quite near me, tried to sneak a peek on the forecourt this evening before arranging a viewing but turns out not to be a showroom dealer, as it was just a residential cul de sac when I got there! Guess it's a guy with a few lock-ups somewhere...

Most pertinently, aside from detailed points about different 190s (and I'm not ruling out other models, just that budget-wise it does look like a 190 for me at the moment) - what do I need to look out for? I have various generalised "used car viewing checklists" but is there anything in particular to look for on a Merc? honestjohn.co.uk warns that clocking is rife on the 190s, what are the tell tale signs other than excessive wear on driver seat, pedals and floor? anything under the bonnet? How do you spot an ex-taxi etc.?

Thanks!
Blue Straggler