Transmission, Radiator.. & Planets!

[Wattoh]

In mid December you helped me with a gearbox problem. If I knew how to attach that thread to this one, I would (it is dated 21 Dec 06 and entitled “E240 (2.6) Auto box Trouble”)!! [Might this be it:- http://forums.mercedesclub.org.uk/showthread.php?t=23372].

As recommended, I went to a member of the Federation of Automatic Transmission Engineers, and so far so good. Apparently "one of the planets has exploded".

The warranty company has inspected, taken photos and are doubtless, as we speak, concocting a series of reasons for not paying out! [They do not know (yet) that I’m a lawyer!!]

Anyhow, the company doing the work has recommended that the radiator be replaced on the basis that they are 'renowned for going wrong' and could lead to water in the auto box (there were no signs of water in the box this time). I have seen some threads which seem to refer to 'transmission oil cooler' and the radiator, so I guess the rad is linked to the transmission somehow! The company recommends a new rad every 5 years and have asked me if I want a new rad fitted now as a precaution.

So come on guys and gals, input please:

1. Is it true the rads on 2000 E class 240's are prone to problems?
2. What is the consequence of a rad going wrong in this way?
3. Should I replace the rad? I believe the one fitted is may well be the original - but I just do not know.
4. Are there any visible signs to look out for before it goes wrong?
5. Would I need a MB rad, or are others available?
6. How much are we talking about, cash-wise, for MB and non-MB radiator?

Thanks!

 

[Hibbo]

I don't normally talk to lawyers, but my good nature* has got the better of me!

Mind you, I'm not that much use (I could schpiel on and on, pretending I know what I'm talking about, on the assumption that you don't) as I don't know your particular model. However; the Transmission Oil Cooler is part of the same unit as the radiator, it sits at the bottom of it is simply another radiator but it has ATF circulating in it not engine coolant. The problem is the barrier between the two can burst, sending engine coolant into the gearbox. The result is a well and truly dead gearbox and a big bill for a new one.

I personally would stick to an OE rad, as these engines do need good cooling.

Check GSF or eurocarparts for prices, I believe the OE suppliers are Behr and Nissen.

Hope this helps (a little).

An invoice for £750+vat is on its way for this consultancy.


*try a Google search if you are unsure what this means.

 

[television]

Hello young man,I was the one that gave you the link.

The cars in the 211 range that were effected was the 211 up to 30/09/03 with engine 113-271-628-647-648 modified cars have a white spot on the rad.

You can double check this by giving your VIN number to MB. I feel sure that your car is a 210

Malcolm

 

[malcolm E53 AMG]

As Malcolm says it was only the early 211 series that were affected (03 on). I own a 210 series and would be very concerned indeed if this model had a radiator designed in the same way.

I have never heard of a 124 or 210 series suffering a gearbox failure due to coolant contamination ie, a radiator so designed that failure of one part would lead to cross contamination. This has happened due to a bad radiator design being approved for the 211 which has since been recognised by MB and the problem designed out.

I think this 211 radiator fiasco can only be compared to the 'sealed for life gearboxes' that have caused problems in other ways. I and you have this type of box fitted and eventually MB has conceeded that the trans oil should be changed every 60K.

Hope this helps clarify the situation.

 

[Wattoh]

Thank you both - and to Malcolm (Television) for the kind recommendation - though should I be slightly concerned that they are trying to sell me a new radiator given what Malcolm210 says...? Mine is a year 2000 E class estate, X reg after all.

 

[Hibbo]

Yes. They are simply seeing you as a cash cow, a means to line their pockets, not a human being. Not nice eh?

 

[television]

Look at it another way, maybe they do not want a come back. I have found them all to be good and honest. Its very hard to keep abreast of all of the data.

Malcolm

 

[Parrot of Doom]

Well if your engine radiator goes the first you'll see is a big warning and a loud beep on the dashboard, low coolant.

If the gearbox radiator went, well......usually its the pipes to the radiator that rust through, is is not? You can check their condition by looking in the bonnet (near the water bottle), and under the engine (remove the undertray).

 

[Wattoh]

Thank you everyone. Am I right in concluding that my 210 does NOT have the sort of radiator which could fail as early 211's did? ie. are my Auto Box Repairers mistaken as to whether my car is/might be affected?

 

[Bolide]

AFAIK all later Mercedes have an auto transmission cooler in unit with the radiator. On that basis I would think any of them could fail and dump ATF into the coolant or vice versa

Nick Froome
www.w124.co.uk

 

[Wattoh]

Oh dear - What to do??!!

Malcolm210 said: "I have never heard of a 124 or 210 series suffering a gearbox failure due to coolant contamination ie, a radiator so designed that failure of one part would lead to cross contamination."

Has anyone ever heard of a 210 failing in this way?

Thanks!

 

[kth286]

Nick

Surely it is a completely seperate circuit, so how could that happen ???????

It is two seperate circuits housed in the same frame for better space utilisation ??????????

Comments are welcome.

 

[television]

Nick

Surely it is a completely seperate circuit, so how could that happen ???????

It is two seperate circuits housed in the same frame for better space utilisation ??????????

Comments are welcome.

All of these comment are doing no good.

There are no known issues of radiators leaking on a 210, please stop scaring this guy with all of these tales of what might happen, if pigs had wings they could not fly any more than the radiator is going to leak on this car

Thanks. Malcolm

 

[Wattoh]

Wow - thanks everyone!

Until I spoke with the garage just now, I was very happy with the clearest possible advice!

Anyway... the garage tells me now that when they first took the box apart they did not look in the converter / fluid coupling(??), and whereas they said last week that they had found no evidence of water, they said that having now opened it, there IS evidence of some water ingress - hence I should have a new rad - £311 supplied and fitted. Not the end of the world.

However, I am totally in their hands and like most consumers feel entirely at their mercy! If the box goes wrong again, I know as sure as eggs is eggs, that they would say it was bec I did not replace the radiator and of course I want them to do a really good job. They have also advised me to trailer the car away if I do not want them to do the rad. now

The warranty company are paying nearly £1000, having first offered - according to the garage - only £100! I am therefore also conscious of the fact that they might well have had a big fight to get a significant result on the warranty - so I am indebted for that. Warranty companies of course only make money by NOT paying out.

Question: Knowing what I now know about 210 rads, could the water ingress in the converter/fluid coupling have come from somewhere else?

At the end of the day, what is at stake is potentially a good deal more than a £300 rad. I need a fully functioning car with a fully functioning gearbox - and on the road, not in a garage.

Thanks as ever guys!

 

[OmniCognateNeutronRangler]

do you know how reputable the garage is? It sounds a bit like they have you by the short and curlies and are trying it on bit. Obviously I'm not there (and wouldn't help much if I was as I don't know a spanner from a crescent wrench) so they may be completely legit. Its note like you can have it independantly inspected either given where it is.

I guess its a case of pay what you need to and then get you car back.

 

[Parrot of Doom]

Thank you everyone. Am I right in concluding that my 210 does NOT have the sort of radiator which could fail as early 211's did? ie. are my Auto Box Repairers mistaken as to whether my car is/might be affected?

Lift your bonnet and look near the water bottle. You should see 2 large metal pipes running from somewhere underneath the engine bay, to a place just behind the nearside headlamp. Angle your head down underneath that headlamp, and you should see a small radiator - thats your transmission cooler.

It is not attached to the water radiator in any way - AFAIK.