veg oil - change in the law

rcflyers

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hopefully, this is ok....



Hi all, I emailed HMRC with the following:

"Dear Sirs,

I am writing to you for clarification on a recent change in the law regarding duty payable on using vegetable oils as road fuel which came into effect on 30th June 2007.
I want to use ordinary SVO (new and unused rapeseed vegetable oil, i.e. Tesco cooking oil) as a road fuel in my diesel car.
Can I use less than 2500 litres per annum and not pay any additional duty?
(i.e. is this type of vegetable oil exempt from any duty as long as the 2500 litre per annum limit is not exceeded?)
I tried ringing your 0845 advice line but a definite and clear answer was not available to me.
Do I need to register in any way to use the above fuel substitute?
Please clarify the law as far as the above is concerned."


Today I received the following reply:


"Date 20 July 2007

Reference xxxxx

Dear Mr xxxxxxxxx

Vegetable Oil/DERV mixture

Thank you for your e-mail dated 15 July 2007 regarding the use of vegetable oil and DERV mixture in your car and whether you have to register with H M Revenue and Customs [HMRC].

The changes brought in under the ‘Biofuels Simplification’ [Revenue and Customs Brief 43/07] whereby producers of biofuels (or other fuel substitutes) who produce (or use) less than 2,500 litres per annum, will no longer be required to make entry, render returns or pay duty, are intended to cover both those who produce or use biofuels (such as biodiesel, or bioethanol), and those who produce or use other ‘fuel substitutes’ (such as vegetable oil).

Anyone producing (or using) more than 2,500 litres per annum will have to make entry of their premises (register), render returns and pay duty.

Where producers or users will exceed 2,500 litres per annum, then they need to make entry of their premises, render returns and pay duty in accordance with Public Notice 179e (which is currently being amended to reflect the recent changes).

For those producers who are ‘registered’ there will remain a continuing requirement for them to show that the fuel that they produce (or use) is Biodiesel (and meets the fiscal definition in HODA) and where this is not the case, they will continue to be liable to the higher rate of duty on the biofuel they produce (or use) at the higher Fuel Substitute rate.

Revenue and Customs Brief 43/07
http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/briefs/excise-duty/brief4307.htm

Public Notice 179E
http://customs.hmrc.gov.uk/channels..._pageLabel=pageLibrary_PublicNoticesAndInfoSh eets&propertyType=document&columns=1&id=HMCE_CL_000205

I hope the above information is satisfactory, but if you have any further queries regarding this matter, please do not hesitate to contact the address shown above quoting our reference number.

Yours sincerely



Mr D J Emmerson
Written Enquiries Officer"


Now, my belief is that if I use below 2500 litres per annum I can use any "fuel substitute"(obviously not Red Diesel or paraffin, etc), only if I use over the 2500 litres per annum do I have to register AND show that the fuel meets the fiscal? specification.

Any comments?
 

pcman_jh

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Re change in law

If your reply is a verbatim copy of what you received i.e. your comments are not the ones in brackets ( ), then it's in black and white that users of 'shop bought' SVO i.e. Veg oil bought from the likes of Costco, Tesco etc are now clearly included in the new laws which means you're free to use it as long as you don't use above 2500 ltrs/yr.

There's been confusion from the original proposal regarding 'shop bought' SVO as it refers to "fuel substitutes" based on thier chemical make-up which, depending on who you asked, would say that 'shop bought' SVO didn't meet the chemical make-up of bio-diesel.

If your reply is an exact copy, then it's there in black and white that it's now OK - yipee!! I'll be taking a copy of the mail - don't suppose you have the original mail that could be printed and retained in the car - this way it will be more credible as it won't look like someone's made it up on their Word processor!
 

Nuclear Bob

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Veg oil - OK in 2002 C220 CDI?

I read the messages on veg oil with interest - it seems legal, but I haven't seen any questions as to its effect on later diesel models like mine. Are there any issues (apart from keeping the diesel/veg ratio high during the winter)?
 

Myros

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A lot of this is going to hinge on proof

if you are unlucky enough to stopped by a road fuel testing unit, and they decide that you are using SVO and they believe you to be over the exemption point, you are then going to have to prove that you haven't used over 2,500 litres in the last year. Out you come with all the receipts, and they come back and say you haven't produced all of them. It would be very easy to suppress purchases by simply losing the receipts. You could fall back on mileage records from your MOTs, but suppose you change cars, or the amount you drive.
If I remember the duty men and their way of working, they will retain some power of assessing what your level of use is based on their opinion, not necessarily having to be supported by any facts.
The chances of being done by an RFTU are small, but if you are driving one of the vehicles that can be driven on veg oil, then the risk is still there, as they will target you if they think it is worth the process to protect the revenue.
Remember, we are only talking about approx. 50 litres a week. I don't know how far that gets you in a venerable Merc diesel, but for some of the higher mileage users, at about 40mpg, you are looking at declaring at 20k miles a year, less if it's thirstier.
 

njsavage

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Has anyone used veg oil in a 320cdi 2001 W210?
I cover 30k miles a year so it would make a saving BUT is it ok????????
 

AnthUK

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Use it in my 2002 E220cdi at 50/50 and runs very well. MPG seems slightly down but feels quicker and saves me £5 a day! Keeping detailed records though to ensure I do not go over the 2500 litre limit.
 

MarkF

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Anybody used Veg oil in a ML270CDi, which is the best make to use?
 

roadhog

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Thank you!

Big thanks for clearing this up! I'd seen the change in legislation but it only referred to 'manufacturers' of biodiesel, didn't really mention 'users' of SVO.
I've recently bought a W124 300D with the express intention of using SVO and so far it's looking good. Car runs fine, smells a bit. Love it! :D
I had intended to make my first post in the new members bit but thought I'd say thank you instead.
 

ennio

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Apologies for my ignorance... If I wanted to exploit this change in duty do I simply buy "new and unused rapeseed oil e.g. Tesco cooking oil" and pour it, litre after litre, into my diesel tank as a direct replacement for diesel, or would I need to mix it with my usual Shell diesel?

andrew

1998 210 E300 Turbodiesel Estate
 

roadhog

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That's what I'm doing with mine except I use Lidl instead of Tesco and my car is a W124 300D. I'm not sure it would work like that with your car.
There's nothing to stop you from buying/making a kit and start producing your own Bio-diesel though.
 
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230K

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Apologies for my ignorance... If I wanted to exploit this change in duty do I simply buy "new and unused rapeseed oil e.g. Tesco cooking oil" and pour it, litre after litre, into my diesel tank as a direct replacement for diesel, or would I need to mix it with my usual Shell diesel?

andrew

1998 210 E300 Turbodiesel Estate

Hi

Dont go any more than 70% derv and 30% veg till you get used to it gradually building up, 50/50 is a nice compromise.

230K
 

pcman_jh

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E300 TD 1999 and veg oil

I'm using oil straight from Costco, although mine's has been converted to 2 tanks - small diesel tank where the spare wheel should go for the cold starts, and end of day stops, with the main tank holding the veg oil - 100% in summer, 85%ish in winter.

I'd recommend this if you're planning anything more than 50% ratios as, before the 2 tank conversion, I've had all sorts of issues with the first few miles with the first run of the day - very noisy injectors, fuel starvation until fully heated up.

My only long term issue has been a step change in the consumpton of engine oil - as much as 1/2 litre a week (around 400 miles) (the car's done 123,000 now, the last 30,000 on various mixtures of veg, the last 21,000 on the 2 tanks). There's no obvious signs of smoke, and it starts first turn of the key, so don't suspect compression wear.
 

ennio

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Many thanks for your answers...

There's nothing to stop you from buying/making a kit and start producing your own Bio-diesel though.

Sunday Telegraph article: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/08/19/ncarbon219.xml
The fuel can be made safely in a few hours using kits which cost £700 and are small enough to fit in garden sheds and garages.

I'd say there are about 700 reasons stopping me from buying a kit - also I am not on the look-out fo a new hobby ;-)


I presume the most simple way for a 50-50 mix is to add 30 litres of Shell diesel then 30 litres cooking oil to my tank. Driving around presumably mixes the two fluids.

pcman_jh: once you have installed a second tank and the plumbing, do you have some kind of dashboard mixer-tap to achieve 85% but 100% diesel for cold starts which you have described?
 

roadhog

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Many thanks for your answers...

I'd say there are about 700 reasons stopping me from buying a kit - also I am not on the look-out fo a new hobby ;-)

Tight git :D


pcman_jh: once you have installed a second tank and the plumbing, do you have some kind of dashboard mixer-tap to achieve 85% but 100% diesel for cold starts which you have described?

To get the 85%/100% mentioned you would have to add some diesel to the main tank. Basically, the small second tank contains 100% diesel for starting/cold running/stopping. The main fuel tank contains the SVO in any mix you choose. In cold weather it's advisable to add diesel to stop the SVO becoming too thick.

If you think £700 for a kit is steep, wait 'til you find out about the cost of converting your car ;)
 

BarryG

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I've been running my car on veg oil for awhile now. No conversion just poured it straight in.
I was on holiday to the Scottish highlands and Skye the other week :)
Drove over 2400 miles all on veg oil.
Put £10 worth of diesel in just before getting home as the shops were closed. :p
I have been getting the veg oil locally for 45p a litre bottle, Means the dustbin fills quickly :p Cheaper than the 20 litre containers at 50p a litre.

Diesel on Skye was 101.9p a litre. :(
Veg oil was 58p :)

Overall I would say I am losing about 2 or 3 miles per gallon, running on veg.
No noticable loss in performance, runs smooth as ever.
There was a nice, long straight, deserted road on Skye, where the car got up to 130 before i started breaking :twisted:
Not bad for an old banger.
(If a policeman is reading that, I mistyped it :rolleyes: )
 

IAN MAC

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Couldn't imagine standing there with 60 or 70 litre bottles.

I get mine from my local Tesco and it comes in at 54p a litre when you buy the big drum. Should really see what the cash n carry costs, but its still a good saving.

Whats everybody else paying and where do you buy from.???
 

roadhog

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Couldn't imagine standing there with 60 or 70 litre bottles.

I get mine from my local Tesco and it comes in at 54p a litre when you buy the big drum. Should really see what the cash n carry costs, but its still a good saving.

Whats everybody else paying and where do you buy from.???

56p per litre from local Lidl and yes, the 1 litre bottles are a pain. What drum are you referring to from Tesco, never seen one. I looked at cash & carry but it still works out 56p so no saving there. I wouldn't mind getting bigger quantities but haven't found anything yet.
 

230K

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Hi

Makro, 20Litre drums in around 50p.

230K
 

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