W221 S350 not starting (doesn’t even try) after service.

[Richard Moakes]

A brake service is likely to have moved the cables for the WSS, if any of the wires were weak then it’s probable that was the final straw and caused them to fail.

In my experience a failed WSS on a 216 causes the car to melt down with lots of warnings but it does not cause a failure to crank/start. Knowing how fragile these things are, I did use the parts cannon and replaced all four, so as to get to a known baseline.

With your car, using the parts cannon hasn’t worked so far, and it’s unlikely to find the problem going forward. What you need is a good auto electrician with a decent scan tool, high end Autel or preferably Star/DAS who can look at live values in the drive authorisation chain and then test the wiring with test lamps and meters.

Intermittent faults are never easy to find but are often caused by corrosion in wiring or connectors hidden away under junction boxes or relays or in places difficult to get to. Look out for green powder anywhere wiring connects, it will permit voltage so can’t be accurately tested with a multimeter, but try putting a load on it with a light bulb and you will find it doesn’t flow current so can’t engage relays etc.

 

[DSK]

You are right. I thought the water ingress was the culprit and coincidence but, water ingress would have been there for ages for how bad it was. Then instantly after the big service the esp and no start issues. They say the wiring was tested and all good. Just odd why the ESP inop and no start started right after the service and before that’s, 2 yrs of bliss.

Even when MB centre said it’s a no start signal from the ECU, something told me it’s not hardware. Hardware wise I would have thought EIS at worst.

I am going to contact http://www.nickincenottingham.co.uk/ on Tuesday as well as Nick from MB as a start to see if they can work together.

Failing this I will try the one in the link in Leicester linked above. I appreciate the help so far.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[malcolm E53 AMG]

This makes interesting viewing MB produced an S400 MHEV (in left hand drive only) during the period your car was manufactured so there would be a lot of crossover engineering going on some of which possibly ended up in your car intuition tells me there is a start inhibitor somewhere in the system and it could well be related the the BCM

I had no idea MB and BMW were ‘experimenting’ with this technology during that period but then again the cars weren’t offered in RHD

 

[Blobcat]

A brake service is likely to have moved the cables for the WSS, if any of the wires were weak then it’s probable that was the final straw and caused them to fail.

In my experience a failed WSS on a 216 causes the car to melt down with lots of warnings but it does not cause a failure to crank/start. Knowing how fragile these things are, I did use the parts cannon and replaced all four, so as to get to a known baseline.

With your car, using the parts cannon hasn’t worked so far, and it’s unlikely to find the problem going forward. What you need is a good auto electrician with a decent scan tool, high end Autel or preferably Star/DAS who can look at live values in the drive authorisation chain and then test the wiring with test lamps and meters.

Intermittent faults are never easy to find but are often caused by corrosion in wiring or connectors hidden away under junction boxes or relays or in places difficult to get to. Look out for green powder anywhere wiring connects, it will permit voltage so can’t be accurately tested with a multimeter, but try putting a load on it with a light bulb and you will find it doesn’t flow current so can’t engage relays etc.

Quite an issue on 911’s is the main battery lead to the starer, it has the volts but not the amps and won’t restart when the engine is hot.
Cut the lead open and you see it’s black throughout… was an £80 part, but engine out to replace it.

 

[DSK]

Log update to add to the file

13/3/2024
2nd hand ECU cloned as been advised no start signal in relation to ECU.
New fuel pump relay at my request.
Water drains modified and water tests confirm no further water ingress.

15/03/2024
Collected car.
Noise like brakes grinding/binding arose within 1 mile abut disappeared within 3 miles without returning.


21/3/22024
Test drive car on M1 without issue.

23/3/2024
Car started but showed ESP and Run Flat inoperative errors. I test drove the car on the M1 and it drove fine but, the ESP warning remained present whilst driving for the first time.

After switching off the car, it fails to start again displaying the ESP and Run flat warning until 30/3/2024 (7 days!).

The weather has also been wet but, the car’s interior has remained dry.

28/3/2024
Hard battery reset performed to no avail.

30/3/2024
It’s been a warm day.
battery showing 12.9v.
Put car on battery maintainer for 6 hours.
Car started first time perfectly, no warnings.
Turned steering from lock to lock several times incase steering angle sensor needs reset.

(I did put the car on a Nocco maintainer for a few hours before this, but even with this new Varta battery, the volts were high before putting it on.

This car does not have any parasitic drain. 2 new batteries fitted since the issue occurred for belt and braces but, despite maintenance with a charger on the last new MB battery, the issue has remained. Therefore I’d rule out the maintenance charger and put it down to coincidence. The car has failed to relentlessly start for a week previously, then started without any battery maintenance etc.)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[DSK]

10/04/2024 Update

The car has been with the garage since last Friday.
There is a new fault log now along the lines of a no start signal getting to the ECU or something along those lines. The issue is not the ECU. They will send me an update with the codes which I will share here in due course for reference.

They have replaced another relay, something to do with T87. The car is performing well.

Stuart from MB centre I’m told is a great mechanic and auto electrical wizard with 30yrs MB dealer top level diagnostics and whatever else experience, so declined to have an independent auto electrician on site to work with them. I get that they are trying to save me money and be methodical in their own right.

Additional instructions from me;
1. 2 relays have now been changed. There should be a further two relays in relation to the whole starting procedure such as T15 etc, based on my research. Change those as well.

2. I supplied 4 new Bosch wheel speed sensors, change those for the sake of it and check the reluctor rings etc at the same time.

3. Whilst car is up on the ramp just have a look at the starter motor and connections for anything untoward.

The owner Nick wants to use the car next week, to commute to/from work, incase the fault occurs he can see it first hand. I declined that as the roads are bad, no one will care and look after the car the way I do. The wheels have no buckles, cracks, the suspension is tight and I’m keeping it that way!

Fingers and toes crossed. I know this car is seriously epic so hoping this is the resolution, as per that other thread where auto elite traced what appears to be a similar/identical fault to a relay. If so, I will keep it and potentially change for a petrol 2013 s63 5.5 or S65, if I see a nice one/two owner example pop up as I really do need a petrol and driving the S350 for the sake of going the long way around, keeping the engine clean and healthy is time consuming.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[SL500+S500]

Try another icarsoft if that fails u may have a system reporting issue. When it works you will see which, if any, wss is misbehaving I don't believe a wss will trigger a no start situation, tho I think cruise and speed limiter all look wss input and I wud not be surprised if one iffy wss caused those issues.
It's beyond me why the ****** ecm cannot average the remaining working wss, ie 3 and carry on as normal whilst alerting you the the one faulty sensor. I thought electronics were built to be logical, but in fact they, it seems are designed to send you and ur wallet to the dealers!!!

The WSS won’t cause a start failure, I‘ve driven to the mechanic with this issue on my old S320D and the S550.

Mine is now in the situation where when it’s cold the EIS sounds like it’s got a failing relay. Initially it won’t start at all, then after 3-5minutes the grinding noise becomes a full start signal, giving a few intermittent starts, then eventually firing.

 

[DSK]

I should think not but on the basis they are there, better on the car than in the box. Plus if they are known to be problematic then all 4 are done as preventative maintenance in DSK fashion.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[malfunction 911]

I have the same model and year as you and I have the same problem, new starter and new battery fitted today. Battery is strong but car now does not crank, warning lights galore. Red warning ' Drive to workshop without changing gear'.
I have read the full thread and you seem to have tried everything to no avail. I picked the car up from the workshop today and it drove fine through traffic but when I had a clear stretch of road I gave it the beans and the car just died and I had to pull over to the side of the road, I am now sitting waiting for a recovery truck searching the internet and thats how I came accross your thread. My car has been sitting for two years and I bought the car two weeks ago, the vendor has offered me my money back. Bit disappointed.

 

[ajlsl600]

I should think not but on the basis they are there, better on the car than in the box. Plus if they are known to be problematic then all 4 are done as preventative maintenance in DSK fashion.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I am not a fan of changing thinks for sake of, if develops a fault yes, if I have to undo a lot of work to get at something I will likely replace wear pts that are involved in getting to and from that pt but if my diagnostics say rf wss faulty, that's the one I am changing. I not removing three other wheels if wss not indicating a fault
As previous I have changed 2 one benz one febi. We see which fails first. My odds are on 50/50at best.

 

[DSK]

It’s just the way I do things and practice what I preach. It’s the way I’ve always been and maintained my cars for the last 23yrs. For me things like a full, proper service and then some every 5k, 1:1 for discs pads, if changing sensors do the lot, every 80k replace the entire suspension overhauling it. For the relays, if one could be dodgy and many Merc issues appear to be fixed by them, sod it, do the lot, job jobbed!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[krsebest]

Just wondering, have any of you replaced the glow plugs or the engine thermometer recently, wonder if any of them could be faulty and causing the non-start issue?

I spotted when my car doesn't start (with the usual run flat +ESP error coming up), the dash temperature gauge also doesn't move at all - even if the car ran earlier in the day and I can be sure that the engine temp is not below the 40C minimum level on the dash, and when eventually the error disappers after multiple tries, the temp gauge jumps to the right level.

On my car the no start issue is fully correlated with outside temperature - now with 10-20C weather in London I haven't had any issues in the last 2 weeks, whereas during winter with trips to europe and 0 - -5C it happened every day, sometimes multiple times. The glow plug indicator on the dash before starting the enging stays on much longer during cold weather (which makes sense), so maybe more usage of the glow plugs make the issue come up more frequently. When trying to turn on the engine very soon after a previous drive, the glow plug sign only shows on the dash very briefly (or not at all), and I don't remember not being able to turn on the engine within a minute after previously running it.

Also, I have a small device plugged in the 12V that has bluetooth to convert music from my phone to radio (so I can listen to my own music). Now this device has a small LCD and besides showing the frequency it is broadcasting on it also shows the voltage of the socket - which basically tells me the voltage of my battery. Note that I changed battery in december to a brand new 95Ah Varta AGM. What's interesting is that as I turn the key twice right (1 turn before turning the engine on), when the glow coil sign shows up on the dash, the voltage drops at least 0.5v, but during winter when it stays on much longer, I could even see voltage drop by 1v. I remember at least 2 occasions with large voltage drops, when even the hissing noise of the air compressor stopped for a second and the coil sign disappeared from the dash before reappearing again for another second. Wonder if that's normal? When the usual error comes up, and no coil sign shows up on the dash with a cold engine, there is no voltage drop either.

 

[SL500+S500]

Just wondering, have any of you replaced the glow plugs or the engine thermometer recently, wonder if any of them could be faulty and causing the non-start issue?

I spotted when my car doesn't start (with the usual run flat +ESP error coming up), the dash temperature gauge also doesn't move at all - even if the car ran earlier in the day and I can be sure that the engine temp is not below the 40C minimum level on the dash, and when eventually the error disappers after multiple tries, the temp gauge jumps to the right level.

On my car the no start issue is fully correlated with outside temperature - now with 10-20C weather in London I haven't had any issues in the last 2 weeks, whereas during winter with trips to europe and 0 - -5C it happened every day, sometimes multiple times. The glow plug indicator on the dash before starting the enging stays on much longer during cold weather (which makes sense), so maybe more usage of the glow plugs make the issue come up more frequently. When trying to turn on the engine very soon after a previous drive, the glow plug sign only shows on the dash very briefly (or not at all), and I don't remember not being able to turn on the engine within a minute after previously running it.

Also, I have a small device plugged in the 12V that has bluetooth to convert music from my phone to radio (so I can listen to my own music). Now this device has a small LCD and besides showing the frequency it is broadcasting on it also shows the voltage of the socket - which basically tells me the voltage of my battery. Note that I changed battery in december to a brand new 95Ah Varta AGM. What's interesting is that as I turn the key twice right (1 turn before turning the engine on), when the glow coil sign shows up on the dash, the voltage drops at least 0.5v, but during winter when it stays on much longer, I could even see voltage drop by 1v. I remember at least 2 occasions with large voltage drops, when even the hissing noise of the air compressor stopped for a second and the coil sign disappeared from the dash before reappearing again for another second. Wonder if that's normal? When the usual error comes up, and no coil sign shows up on the dash with a cold engine, there is no voltage drop either.

The engine temperature is certainly an issue for mine, I was running with both hot AND cold start issues until I resolved the battery gremlins. I’ll have a look at the sensor. Warm/hot starting is much, much better.

 

[tode]

10/04/2024 Update

The car has been with the garage since last Friday.
. . . .

Stuart from MB centre I’m told is a great mechanic and auto electrical wizard with 30yrs MB dealer top level diagnostics and whatever else experience, so declined to have an independent auto electrician on site to work with them. . . . . .

I simply cannot believe that an "auto electrical wizard" would tell you that a 350 Bluetec only has one battery ! (Posts 175 and 177).

Your MB Centre doesn't seem to know what they're doing with this car and are just throwing parts at it.

Until you get it to a recommended (on here) Indie or an MB dealer, this will continue for a long time. You may have a few miles to go, but IMHO it's better doing the miles once than carrying on like this . . .

hth

 

[V6Matty]

I simply cannot believe that an "auto electrical wizard" would tell you that a 350 Bluetec only has one battery ! (Posts 175 and 177).

Your MB Centre doesn't seem to know what they're doing with this car and are just throwing parts at it.

Until you get it to a recommended (on here) Indie or an MB dealer, this will continue for a long time. You may have a few miles to go, but IMHO it's better doing the miles once than carrying on like this . . .

hth

MB Centre are recommended (by me actually), I’ve used them for years and never had an issue with them, they’ve even found stuff bodged by previous owners and fixed it correctly. I can assure you that while they seem to have dropped the ball here a couple of times their work is usually very very good, Nick the owner is also a tech himself so does know what he’s doing, if he’s struggling to find a fault it means it’s one of those that difficult to track down.

 

[tode]

But, as you say, they seem to be out of their depth here . . .

 

[Wighty]

I should think not but on the basis they are there, better on the car than in the box. Plus if they are known to be problematic then all 4 are done as preventative maintenance in DSK fashion.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

You should have that on a T-shirt …..buddy

 

[Richard Moakes]

You should have that on a T-shirt …..buddy

That’s my standard process, if something has failed, the others won’t be far behind, so replace them all, less long term stress

 

[DSK]

The parts that MB centre have thrown at it are:

Second hand ecu
Start motor relay

The rest of the parts cannon is on me. They are begging me not to but, if there’s some science attached, the punts have been on me such as EIS, extra relays, wss, etc.

Whilst the plan was to always have this maintained by star and Alex, sadly my life situation kept me in hard lock down to which I was seeing no end. This forced me to have the car service at MB Centre a Nottingham. From Jan this year I can breath a bit but we are we are with the s350.

Driving to star or Alex now and making my own way there and back without a car after dropping it off and collecting it is not practical in my situation at present, although a day trip for service work would be.

Other than open my wallet and offer anyone to come up with their kit, happy to pay for hotels and garage downtime etc, I’ve done all I can! It’s not easy being a single parent, living under 24/7 protection, with a 3yr old and having a high stress job and a business to run.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[DSK]

MB Centre are recommended (by me actually), I’ve used them for years and never had an issue with them, they’ve even found stuff bodged by previous owners and fixed it correctly. I can assure you that while they seem to have dropped the ball here a couple of times their work is usually very very good, Nick the owner is also a tech himself so does know what he’s doing, if he’s struggling to find a fault it means it’s one of those that difficult to track down.

It’s all your fault


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk