Brexit

[Craiglxviii]

Craig I'm surprised it's as low as that, most of my dinner gets binned. I have an aversion to vegetables.

So I did some quick study of the total UK food production and was quite surprised.

Cutting out detail- I'm short of time- the UK currently produces enough food to give every head of population the following daily amounts:

Meat (beef, pork/ bacon, lamb/ mutton, turkey, chicken, duck): 0.15kg
Starch products (potatoes, wheats/ grains): 1.03kg
Milk: 1 pint (yes really!)
Eggs: 30g
Oil: 110g

2015 data: UK food & grocery market size is £177.5bn. Latest figure of food waste I saw was estimated at £7bn annually, so 3.9% of food bought is wasted.

 

[davemercedes]

The media...

...Just how does a British MP argue against the repatriation of powers to the British Parliament ? times are interesting.

It looks as though a lot of MPs are prepared to argue against the bill as it stands because it's frankly a shambles and (bearing in mind the way the "Dementia Tax" item was slipped in to the manifesto just before the Queens speech, lots of them including a number of the government's own own party simply don't trust their own government not to take some creeping powers.
- Neither do I, to be honest!

• The legislation - for which parliament has yet to set a date to debate the bill, could very easily be derailed and (as if it still needs it) that would severely test May and her ministers ability to negotiate a compromise or find sufficient support from opposition parties. In the end, her position could swiftly become untenable (although many already think we've passed that point). We also need to bear in mind that a legislative transition of this scope has never before been undertaken (quote from Adam Marshall, DG of the British Chambers of Commerce (BCC). So we are going into this huge task with insufficient time and lots of mistrust and alternative agendas.

• The Scottish and Welsh governments have threatened to block the bill. Welsh First Minister Carwyn Jones said the repeal bill was a "naked power-grab" which he could not support. According to the Beeb today, UK Scottish Secretary David Mundell claimed the repeal bill would result in a powers "bonanza" for Holyrood - a comment described as "ludicrous" by the SNP.

• So now there's a new game of Project Fear - No 10 said it had to be passed or "there will be no laws" after Brexit.

• The government's spending watchdog reported that Britain's planned new customs system, essential to smooth trade, might not be ready in time for Brexit, adding to a list of concerns over the government's plans.

• The bill will give powers to ministers, "with the approval of parliament", to correct laws to ensure they work after being brought into British law. These powers will exist until two years after the day Britain leaves. But imo you really have to trust people who have that level of power!

• Other existing laws require Britain to seek an opinion from the European Commission before a project is approved - which will also need to be changed.

• MPs are concerned - probably correctly - that the sheer volume of work could limit their ability to scrutinise the changes effectively and it seems many fear the government will introduce policy change by the back door.

• The Labour Party said it would oppose the bill unless it met six conditions, including guarantees for workers' rights. Corbyn said: "Far too much of it seems to be a process where the government... will be able to bypass Parliament. Tim Farron, leader of the Liberal Democrats, said he would work to soften May's stance, promising the prime minister that "this will be hell". - Mind you he doesn't have much clout with only 12 MPs but Vince Cable is rattling his toys in his pram too.

• Many British companies have spent the last year since trying to figure out how the change will affect their business which has been pretty impossible with Mayhem's arrogant attitude - so they will be scrutinizing the bill and lobbying for change if they don't like the content.

And all this has to be done in a huge rush instead of examining things properly etc - The stupid thing is that all HMG has to do is adopt the EU laws as effective (with UK judges in place of EU judiciary) for (say) two years at which point it could then simply be repealed and redrawn properly - as Mayhem etc say "for the good of the country!" As I said, it's frankly a shambles.

 

[LostKiwi]

You expected anything else Dave?
They negotiated a great deal with EDF after all....

 

[keefysher]

In respect of food waste, my PEI produced this report 4 years ago:
http://www.imeche.org/news/news-article/half-of-all-food-produced-ends-up-as-waste-says-imeche

When my wife and I first met, she was gobsmacked that when she came here for dinner I prepared fresh food from fresh ingredients and cooked every night.

I've never understood the difficulty the entitled generation has in the concept of cooking and preparing food.

How much do all those pre packed sandwiches, plastic salads, sugary coffees cost on a weekly / monthly / annual basis compared to making them at home? Not just in monetary terms , but health terms?

I currently do the packed lunches for the 3 of us each day. Tuna pasta salad for daughter to take to school. Salad of pasta, ham, boiled egg, grated carrot, lettuce, tomato. I normally have a sarnie with ham / cheese. Not full of shite and pennies per day. £6 for 2 weeks of lunches for 3 people.

I do use the Priority app on the mobile for a free coffee each Tuesday at Cafe Nero and the occasional free lunch on a Monday if near an outlet.

Have recently cut out most processed foods and 'ready meals'. Lost about 3 stone, feel fitter. Friday night is home made curry regardless of if we are home or away in the caravan. Takes better and easy to do even in a caravan.

Just the alcohol consumption to tackle, but only drink on the weekend

 

[keefysher]

You expected anything else Dave?
They negotiated a great deal with EDF after all....

Before they bottled making a timely decision in 2010 for HP (Hinckley Point, not Houses of Parliament, or brown sauce), the strike price was £46/MWh. At that time the build cost was £60bn. The same quarter the banks were given a QE injection of £63bn to squander on bonuses.
The same decision makers are dealing with Brexit.

 

[davemercedes]

So I did some quick study of the total UK food production and was quite surprised.

Cutting out detail- I'm short of time- the UK currently produces enough food to give every head of population the following daily amounts:

Meat (beef, pork/ bacon, lamb/ mutton, turkey, chicken, duck): 0.15kg
Starch products (potatoes, wheats/ grains): 1.03kg
Milk: 1 pint (yes really!)
Eggs: 30g
Oil: 110g

2015 data: UK food & grocery market size is £177.5bn. Latest figure of food waste I saw was estimated at £7bn annually, so 3.9% of food bought is wasted.

I'm surprised at 3.9%, Craig - I thought your original 12% thought was closer. Mind you, over the last few years the big 5 supermarkets gave in and allowed charities to take a lot of their unsold food so maybe that helped bring it down but when you see it as money: £7Bn is a lot of grub - more than £19m a day!

tbh The food industry seems to have a death wish - our nearest supermarket is Morrison's and SWMBO says they are the most generous when applying clearance labels. Almost every afternoon there's stuff marked down - veg is hit and miss although there's lots of it (sometiomes we bring home 5 Kg of washed potatoes that cost us 0.09p (!) But bread is almost always available - I don't think we've paid full price for a sliced "toastie" for years - why would we, when there's usually 20 or more perfectly fresh and edible loaves marked down? But my main point is, they seem to be marking down that same amount of bread virtually every day (don't tell anyone!)

 

[davemercedes]

In respect of food waste, my PEI produced this report 4 years ago:
http://www.imeche.org/news/news-article/half-of-all-food-produced-ends-up-as-waste-says-imeche

When my wife and I first met, she was gobsmacked that when she came here for dinner I prepared fresh food from fresh ingredients and cooked every night.

I've never understood the difficulty the entitled generation has in the concept of cooking and preparing food.

How much do all those pre packed sandwiches, plastic salads, sugary coffees cost on a weekly / monthly / annual basis compared to making them at home? Not just in monetary terms , but health terms?

I currently do the packed lunches for the 3 of us each day. Tuna pasta salad for daughter to take to school. Salad of pasta, ham, boiled egg, grated carrot, lettuce, tomato. I normally have a sarnie with ham / cheese. Not full of shite and pennies per day. £6 for 2 weeks of lunches for 3 people.

I do use the Priority app on the mobile for a free coffee each Tuesday at Cafe Nero and the occasional free lunch on a Monday if near an outlet.

Have recently cut out most processed foods and 'ready meals'. Lost about 3 stone, feel fitter. Friday night is home made curry regardless of if we are home or away in the caravan. Takes better and easy to do even in a caravan.

Just the alcohol consumption to tackle, but only drink on the weekend

As you stay it's astounding how many of the young and not so young have no idea how to cook anything. imo That is the fault of their parents or their parent's parents. My grandchildren all have a go at cooking and one thing our kids did for them was take them to the "farmer's market" type of place for shopping and they grew veg and tomatoes etc in their gardens. But I was talking to one of my granddaughter's schoolteachers recently - she told me that many of the young kids do not even realise that potatoes and carrots come out of the ground with soil stuck to them! Unfortunately they're not taught that a sandwich is far better nourishment without being overloaded with salt etc and often costs less than a pack of crisps. All our supermarkets seem to flog ready roasted rotisserie chicken - imo overpriced and it's laced with sugar syrup and/or soya to burn brown! Okay for an odd convenience purchase but many think they're getting "good fresh food".

I was astounded last week - we got home very late so I went out and bought Cod n Chips for me (standard size chips, thank heavens - they always confuse quantity for quality!) and a small tray of sliced kebab meat for SWMBO. - £8.55 and I probably used a couple of litres of diesel to get there and back making the total cost over £10.55! The chippie's fish batter is good but even buying fresh fish from the supermarket (who all tend to be more expensive than the one remaining fishmonger in town) would reduce the bill to roughly half of that!

- You're refreshingly old fashioned, keefysher - keep up the good work!

 

[davemercedes]

Before they bottled making a timely decision in 2010 for HP (Hinckley Point, not Houses of Parliament, or brown sauce), the strike price was £46/MWh. At that time the build cost was £60bn. The same quarter the banks were given a QE injection of £63bn to squander on bonuses.
The same decision makers are dealing with Brexit.

Yup, so true. And our PM campaigned to remain then jumped for Cameron's vacant chair (purely to help the country of course...). I found and posted a series of her speeches before and after the vote where today she says the exact opposite of what she said when campaigning. She was either lying then or lying now - you have to make up your own mind (I did!). And you must never forget the words of our then millionaire Chancellor who applied the austerity screw "We're all in this together".
- Unfortunately some people are more "in it" than others!

 

[davemercedes]

You expected anything else Dave?
They negotiated a great deal with EDF after all....

No Alistair... it's a superb deal - just makes me think back to that "best of a lousy choice" voting thing again!

 

[Craiglxviii]

I read that IMechE article along with the report data behind it a few days back. There was one key assumption on the global population that I didn't agree with... it was a chart intercept of another UN report which gave a growth trend for Africa which was fairly linear to reach 18bn by 2080. That rather ignores the African propensity for genocide and culling excess population stress...

We try to cook everything fresh, have the odd takeaway usually one Friday a month.

 

[davemercedes]

I read that IMechE article along with the report data behind it a few days back. There was one key assumption on the global population that I didn't agree with... it was a chart intercept of another UN report which gave a growth trend for Africa which was fairly linear to reach 18bn by 2080. That rather ignores the African propensity for genocide and culling excess population stress...

We try to cook everything fresh, have the odd takeaway usually one Friday a month.

Yes, it doesn't matter how much education such people get, the same motivation of power and greed that applies to most our politicians - only of course much worse applies there because a lot of their power is "absolute". There's also the tribal thing that will survive at least another 4-500 years before it eventually washes out of their system, which is a great shame. My BIL married a girl from Rhodesia (it still was called that then!) and they ended up going there to live. We heard incredible stories such as the huge brand new combine harvester (donated apparently) that sat in full view on "somebody's" front garden (because he could) and eventually everything seized up and rusted...

The real problem is that we take charity too far and expect to go and fix everything... Unfortunately the harsh truth is that all such countries must in the end decide their own destiny and whatever we do that interferes with their pathway is, and never will be appreciated. "End of Sermon!"

 

[Craiglxviii]

Dave, part of my first job was supporting ICRC aid work in Central & Mid Africa. A few things stick with me from that. These are personal observations only and are generalised so not applicable to just one area or region.

The population prefers direct aid to reeducation. They would rather a well is dig for them, than to be taught how to do it themselves and have the equipment provided.

Corruption is rife and rampant. It's more than an accepted way of life.

Technology is viewed as something with which to gain (personal) power & control, not as a tool to elevate the lot of a society.

Casual cruelty is accepted to a level that would have shocked the Romans.

More than one aid convoy I personally witnessed delivering less than 25% of its original cargo to the actual recipients. The remainder was taken as fees/ duties/ levies along the route by various local warlords- who then sold them back into regional markets usually direct to the ICRC buyers...

Complicated problem looking for a solution, it certainly is.

 

[davemercedes]

Dave, part of my first job was supporting ICRC aid work in Central & Mid Africa. A few things stick with me from that. These are personal observations only and are generalised so not applicable to just one area or region.

The population prefers direct aid to reeducation. They would rather a well is dig for them, than to be taught how to do it themselves and have the equipment provided.

Corruption is rife and rampant. It's more than an accepted way of life.

Technology is viewed as something with which to gain (personal) power & control, not as a tool to elevate the lot of a society.

Casual cruelty is accepted to a level that would have shocked the Romans.

More than one aid convoy I personally witnessed delivering less than 25% of its original cargo to the actual recipients. The remainder was taken as fees/ duties/ levies along the route by various local warlords- who then sold them back into regional markets usually direct to the ICRC buyers...

Complicated problem looking for a solution, it certainly is.

Doesn't surprise me unduly - you couldn't make it up, could you? But back home we have the champion "do-gooders" who've never been further oversea than Torremolinos but they "know" what the starving population really need (because they heard a wide-boy saying so, only last week, so it must be true...)

It's very difficult to adopt an attitude of "let them sort themselves out" when we know many of the "real" people are desperately hungry and being controlled by the latest in-power chieftain but giving the receivers carte blanche to take whatever charitable people have contributed towards, is obviously not the correct decision - so we end up as usual with a Mexican Standoff where normally, possession is nine-tenths of the local law and the genuinely deserving population usually have to simply "do without".

I've heard and read so many stories of the situation in Rhodesia/Zimbabwe over the last 15/20 years and I'm more than a little ashamed that my country (driven currently by someone who professes a desire to "correct injustices" - yeah, right) has managed to totally ignore the maltreatment of ALL that country's population - including many with whom we have a physical as well as ethical and intellectual connection.
- But then, there's no oil there is there? Ho hum!

 

[Yugguy]

Blair's come out with some feverish bollocks not even Labour agree with. The daft twat really needs to do the decent thing and stop speaking.

 

[davemercedes]

Question:

I remember hundreds of pages ago tha somebody had a sort of formula for the up scaling of import costs when large distance applies and presumably the same applies on export. I particularly recall from the time when I was importing tyres from USA - by the time we had paid freight, clearance and distribution we could virtually take the US~$ price and use the same number in £... As our Landed Cost.

Then we have to think about what goods other countries have to offer and vice versa. So I wonder - has anybody worked out what might be included (both ways) in trade deals with for example USA, Canada and Australia?

 

[Craiglxviii]

Question:

I remember hundreds of pages ago tha somebody had a sort of formula for the up scaling of import costs when large distance applies and presumably the same applies on export. I particularly recall from the time when I was importing tyres from USA - by the time we had paid freight, clearance and distribution we could virtually take the US~$ price and use the same number in £... As our Landed Cost.

Then we have to think about what goods other countries have to offer and vice versa. So I wonder - has anybody worked out what might be included (both ways) in trade deals with for example USA, Canada and Australia?

Seafreight (the costs involved in running the ship for the period of that one trip alone) is the cheapest form of transport going. By a very long way. To give you an idea, a typical large container ship will carry 15,000 TEU (twenty foot equivalent units- e.g. half a full sized 40' container) from China to Felixstowe in a month using 140 ton of fuel per day. 3900 ton or so of marine bunker distillate at $290/ton. $1.14m. Which works out to... $70/ TEU! Ok, add the running costs of the ship for a month and you'll get to say $100/ TEU. What's actually being charged wholesale for that same run is around $900/ TEU so you can see the shipping companies have a half decent gross margin...

Either way, compare the cost fuel wise to move a container 14,000 miles with that of an artic doing 15mpg and you'll see what I mean (that works out to £0.266/ mile for 2 x TEU fuel cost, so £0.13/ mile/ TEU by the way. The ship works out to $0.005/ mile/ TEU)...

 

[Frontstep]

Which is why the world is waiting to trade with us its not dear to send goods half way around the world if your not in a hurry for them.
The insufferable tat that China has sent us for decades demonstrates it.
The new Maersk triple E's can operate with just 13 crew and carry 18,000 boxes (a friend has just finished with Maersk) cost effective worldwide trade is a reality.
Tony Blair is bringing word from his EU cronies who realised the mistake they made in letting us go.
Leaving Cameron to return home empty handed was a big mistake.

 

[Craiglxviii]

In 1870, beef was cheaper (by 40%) from Argentina shipped here in bulk ice- ships (and later, Empire standard modular refrigerator ships) than it was home grown.

The relative economics of bulk seafreight haven't changed in centuries.

By the way, the shipping time thing is only an issue for one- offs, first orders or significant change in sales rates. For volume sales the only real issue is the departure/ arrival rates of orders. Might be one a day or one a month...

 

[keefysher]

Which is why the world is waiting to trade with us its not dear to send goods half way around the world if your not in a hurry for them.
The insufferable tat that China has sent us for decades demonstrates it.
The new Maersk triple E's can operate with just 13 crew and carry 18,000 boxes (a friend has just finished with Maersk) cost effective worldwide trade is a reality.
Tony Blair is bringing word from his EU cronies who realised the mistake they made in letting us go.
Leaving Cameron to return home empty handed was a big mistake.

Sending a boy to do a man's job was a fatal mistake.

Tony Bliar has screwed up big time. Shagging Murdoch's ex missus wasn't a good move. He is now Billy No Mates, looking for a sympathy shag. Have you noticed Alf Garnet's son in law's daughter is nowhere in sight these days.

But lots buy the tat, that's consumerism for you.

Overcoming the empty return is key. In a past life utilised empty reefers importing meat from NZ and Oz to return to Oz with components for assembly in Oz tariff free. They just had to clean the grease off the floor used to slide packing frames in

 

[Craiglxviii]

Yeah, operating in ballast is a mug's game. But the global logistics industry is very finely tuned in organising return cargoes... and has been for the last five centuries