Final leg of the on going judder issue.

[Jimbo1959]

At my mates garage, using his two poster ramps to get the car right off the ground to do the rear brakes.

As you can see from the pics, the old back discs and pads look ok at strip down.

The handbrake shoes were almost brand new (sorry no pics, my hands were too dirty to use my camera by then), and only required a de-glaze and clean out of the little powder build up that there was. The shoe adjuster was free and gave no issues at all, making removal very easy indeed.
Saved myself a few bob there, the new shoes and fitting kit will go back for a refund.

The pistons in the calipers were not seized in the slightest, you could almost push them back in with your fingers, there was not a mark on the pistons and they only got a clean with a 1500 grit sheet of wet and dry as a precaution, a gentle squeeze with a large pair of water pump pliers got them pushed fully home to enable the fitting of the new set of pads and sensors.
Another few bob saved there too, the new calipers can also go back for a refund.

The hubs themselves only had a minimum of rust build up on them too, so, again they were cleaned up before fitting the new discs as is recommended to prevent causing any run out.

When the car was road tested, after fitting the new parts, it felt smoother right from the off. (I do hope that's not just placebo effect, lol.) The brake pedal also felt better to, even less travel than before, well that's as it should be after all I suppose, as, that's all the braking materials and most of the hard wear that have been replaced now.

So, fingers crossed, it certainly feels promising.

I'll update this thread when I've bed in the new pads in a couple of hundred miles or so.

 

[robin.large]

So did you change brake fluid! I got me a handy little tester which gives me a heads up of water content in brake fluid! All that work would be wanted if old fluid was bubbling away under pressure!


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[Jimbo1959]

So did you change brake fluid! I got me a handy little tester which gives me a heads up of water content in brake fluid! All that work would be wanted if old fluid was bubbling away under pressure!


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Complete fluid change was done when I had the front dics, pads, calipers and brake hoses replaced a fortnight ago sir, (I assume).

I have been going crazy and to extremes to identify/remove/fix this ******* judder.

 

[davemercedes]

Fingers x’d for you

 

[Janchee]

Complete fluid change was done when I had the front dics, pads, calipers and brake hoses replaced a fortnight ago sir, (I assume).

I have been going crazy and to extremes to identify/remove/fix this ******* judder.

Hey Jimbo - did this fix it? Just picked up a W213 estate three weeks ago (66 plate, 33k miles).

Noticed a pretty harsh judder under braking. Researching around google - this seems to be a major issue with the e class brakes? Anyone else shed any information on what the root cause is?

 

[Jimbo1959]

Hey Jimbo - did this fix it? Just picked up a W213 estate three weeks ago (66 plate, 33k miles).

Noticed a pretty harsh judder under braking. Researching around google - this seems to be a major issue with the e class brakes? Anyone else shed any information on what the root cause is?

The judder was absent for a couple of weeks and then a shadow of its former self resurfaced, so, I replaced the rear pads and discs too.

It went away again this time for around a month, six weeks and then came back but in a weird way. I noticed that it was only at silly high speed (autobahn conditions) any hoo, I was washing the wheels last week (Sunday I think it was) and happened to notice that some of the wheel balance weights were missing on both sides at the front, all that was there was the sticky pads where they had held on the the weights so, it's going in on Saturday this weekend to get all the wheels balanced to rule that out.

Fingers crossed that this will be the final expenditure because it's spoiling what is otherwise a very pleasant driving experience with the car. I am hopefull as she's been a lot smoother and up until it started again, I'm guessing after the weights fell off, I thought it had been cured, I just couldn't say replacing what has solved the issue tbh.

In my quest to rid my self of the dreaded judder I've done the front discs and pads three times, at the last fitment I also added new front calipers and flexihoses, I've also replaced the rear discs and pads, stripped, cleaned and rebuilt the handbrake shoes and return spring assembly. The rear calipers were ok, I discovered that one of the front alloys was out of true and had that rejigged and straightened out. I've had the wheel alignment done several times in an attempt to rule that out too. I've also had the suspension checked and rechecked to make sure that there wasn't any issues there too. I've had the wheels balanced hm... more times than I can remember, I can't even look up my receipts 'cos I don't have any. What I do have is a friend who does them for me for the price of a couple of beers good fella, I'm lucky.

Thank f...foxtrot I work in the motortrade and didn't pay full retail for anything otherwise the car would definitely be gone. It would have cost an absolute fortune to get that lot done as Joe Public.

I will update what, if anything, the re-balance achieves after running it for a couple of days.

 

[Janchee]

The judder was absent for a couple of weeks and then a shadow of its former self resurfaced, so, I replaced the rear pads and discs too.

It went away again this time for around a month, six weeks and then came back but in a weird way. I noticed that it was only at silly high speed (autobahn conditions) any hoo, I was washing the wheels last week (Sunday I think it was) and happened to notice that some of the wheel balance weights were missing on both sides at the front, all that was there was the sticky pads where they had held on the the weights so, it's going in on Saturday this weekend to get all the wheels balanced to rule that out.

Fingers crossed that this will be the final expenditure because it's spoiling what is otherwise a very pleasant driving experience with the car. I am hopefull as she's been a lot smoother and up until it started again, I'm guessing after the weights fell off, I thought it had been cured, I just couldn't say replacing what has solved the issue tbh.

In my quest to rid my self of the dreaded judder I've done the front discs and pads three times, at the last fitment I also added new calipers and flexihoses, I've also replaced the rear discs and pads, stripped, cleaned and rebuilt the handbrake shoes and return spring assembly. I discovered that one of the front alloys was out of true and had that rejigged and straightened out. I've had the wheel alignment done several times in an attempt to rule that out too. I've also had the suspension checked and rechecked to make sure that there wasn't any issues there too. I've had the wheels balanced hm... more times than I can remember, I can't even look up my receipts 'cos I don't have any. What I do have is a friend who does them for me for the price of a couple of beers good fella, I'm lucky.

Thank f...foxtrot I work in the motortrade and didn't pay full retail for anything otherwise the car would definitely be gone. It would have cost an absolute fortune to get that lot done as Joe Public.

I will update what, if anything, the re-balance achieves after running it for a couple of days.

Wow that is some work to rule it out Looking online - some people have mentioned a possibility of the HOLD function ie after a pretty harsh brake and then the car holds the brakes on the hot disc. Some have mentioned that when they stop using the hold function - after about 1k mike the judder is nearly gone.
Seen so many issues of the E class 2016 ie when the model was first released.

 

[Jimbo1959]

Wow that is some work to rule it out Looking online - some people have mentioned a possibility of the HOLD function ie after a pretty harsh brake and then the car holds the brakes on the hot disc. Some have mentioned that when they stop using the hold function - after about 1k mike the judder is nearly gone.
Seen so many issues of the E class 2016 ie when the model was first released.

Hm.. that's a good idea, because I have used the HOLD feature every time I drive the car, I think I'll give it a try or not for a while and see if that will help.

I don't do such a high milage in the car as I used too perhaps that might also help?

 

[Janchee]

Hm.. that's a good idea, because I have used the HOLD feature every time I drive the car, I think I'll give it a try or not for a while and see if that will help.

I don't do such a high milage in the car as I used too perhaps that might also help?

Yeah it does make sense with the hold function. Going to try a few harsh brakes to see if I can get some of the friction material off. There are a few papers that have researched the subject and found that it’s not always warped discs. It can be hotspots where there is a lot of friction material ie not bedding in properly or something else.

https://alconkits.com/support/brake-pad-info/110-the-real-truth-about-warped-brake-rotors

http://www.brakeworld.co.uk/pdf/tb1.pdf

Just means my adaptive cruise is now useless in traffic without the hold function!

Thinking about it ... this is the first time I’ve used the hold function in traffic after a long drive and some pretty harsh stops... will let you know how I get on!

 

[Jimbo1959]

Yeah it does make sense with the hold function. Going to try a few harsh brakes to see if I can get some of the friction material off. There are a few papers that have researched the subject and found that it’s not always warped discs. It can be hotspots where there is a lot of friction material ie not bedding in properly or something else.

https://alconkits.com/support/brake-pad-info/110-the-real-truth-about-warped-brake-rotors

http://www.brakeworld.co.uk/pdf/tb1.pdf

Just means my adaptive cruise is now useless in traffic without the hold function!

Thinking about it ... this is the first time I’ve used the hold function in traffic after a long drive and some pretty harsh stops... will let you know how I get on!

Now that you've mentioned it, it made me think and realise that my issues have all been caused or are the result of hard driving/braking. If I drive gently there are no issues but, if I am making progress on a country road with lots of hard acceleration and braking that's where and when my issues arise.

Thanks Jan, another avenue to explore, Hmm..., how to circumvent the problem and still make progress? That's the thing.

Please let me know how you get on Jan, hopefully, between us, we can come up with a strategy or course of action which will enable a cure, or at least prevent expensive replacement parts. At the moment I have been beginning to look at an SLK250 CDi, a Boxster or a Cayman as an alternative, but I really love the all round package of my Coupé, comfort, handling and acceleration.
Fingers crossed.

 

[bembo449]

that reads like you are over heating the pads Jim ? I think id be trying some uprated pads , I have the same issue on my insignia vxr , sorted it with hi performance pads

 

[Wighty]

Hm.. that's a good idea, because I have used the HOLD feature every time I drive the car, I think I'll give it a try or not for a while and see if that will help.

I don't do such a high milage in the car as I used too perhaps that might also help?

I’m due a change on all my discs/pads and caliper overhaul on the E class soon . My original discs are all still on at 102,000 miles . I also use the hold function all the time since 20,000 miles when I bourght the car , so I think we can rule out the hold function .
What about a sticking caliper ?

 

[Janchee]

I’m due a change on all my discs/pads and caliper overhaul on the E class soon . My original discs are all still on at 102,000 miles . I also use the hold function all the time since 20,000 miles when I bourght the car , so I think we can rule out the hold function .
What about a sticking caliper ?

Ahh that’s interesting - What year is the e class? Any record of the brakes getting changed before you bought it?

 

[Wighty]

Ahh that’s interesting - What year is the e class? Any record of the brakes getting changed before you bought it?

2009 , I’m just finishing my second set of pads now , discs are original as I bourght the car at 20k miles and the wear on them was appropriate for the mileage .

 

[Jimbo1959]

I’m due a change on all my discs/pads and caliper overhaul on the E class soon . My original discs are all still on at 102,000 miles . I also use the hold function all the time since 20,000 miles when I bourght the car , so I think we can rule out the hold function .
What about a sticking caliper ?

All new on the front, all unseized on the rear when new discs and pads were fitted.


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[Janchee]

2009 , I’m just finishing my second set of pads now , discs are original as I bourght the car at 20k miles and the wear on them was appropriate for the mileage .

That's interesting ... Do you think there could of been a little bit of a problem with disc manufacture in 2016? A lot of the forums state a 2016 E class with original discs/pads. Mercedes have replaced a lot of them under warranty as well.

 

[Jimbo1959]

After discovering that each wheel was not balanced and, some were out by as much as 45 grammes, I had hoped that the phantom judder would be consigned to history after they were all balanced.
The techie did a marvelous job, meticulous in fact, as I was standing watching him all through the procedure.
The damned judder is still there, diminished considerably, I might add but, I can still feel it under heavy braking from high speed.

Oh well, back to the drawing board. FFS !!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Janchee]

After discovering that each wheel was not balanced and, some were out by as much as 45 grammes, I had hoped that the phantom judder would be consigned to history after they were all balanced.
The techie did a marvelous job, meticulous in fact, as I was standing watching him all through the procedure.
The damned judder is still there, diminished considerably, I might add but, I can still feel it under heavy braking from high speed.

Oh well, back to the drawing board. FFS !!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ahh b******* - how are you bedding in the brakes?

 

[Jimbo1959]

Ahh b******* - how are you bedding in the brakes?

At the moment I'm not, mainly because it's too bloo*y cold to work on the car outside.

My plan of attack now is to clean the discs with brake cleaner and a sheet of 1000 grit wet and dry and an abrasive pad, then to try and rebed the brakes as if they were all still brand new.

I may also look at getting a set of high performance pads for the front as bembo449 suggested to see if that will help because I can't in all seriousness see me driving this car like Miss Daisy's. I would go mad.

To think I traded in a small semi hot hatch in perfect working order with great brakes and handling to get this car, ain't hindsight a wonderfull thing?

I'm just getting p!ssed off that nothing I have tried is working and Swmbo has got her, "told you so" face on.

I took her car to have the wheel balance fixed today too and ended up putting four new tyres on it and getting the tracking done, it's now going and stopping like a feckin' dream.

 

[Wighty]

At the moment I'm not, mainly because it's too bloo*y cold to work on the car outside.

My plan of attack now is to clean the discs with brake cleaner and a sheet of 1000 grit wet and dry and an abrasive pad, then to try and rebed the brakes as if they were all still brand new.

I may also look at getting a set of high performance pads for the front as bembo449 suggested to see if that will help because I can't in all seriousness see me driving this car like Miss Daisy's. I would go mad.

To think I traded in a small semi hot hatch in perfect working order with great brakes and handling to get this car, ain't hindsight a wonderfull thing?

I'm just getting p!ssed off that nothing I have tried is working and Swmbo has got her, "told you so" face on.

I took her car to have the wheel balance fixed today too and ended up putting four new tyres on it and getting the tracking done, it's now going and stopping like a feckin' dream.

Have you checked the discs for runout ? With a dial gauge