Final leg of the on going judder issue.

[Wighty]

Could any movement in bushes or arms that connect to the back of the hub cause this ?

 

[bembo449]

I think the fact he can make the problem disappear for a while pal , suggests it cant be anything but brakes related , no ?

 

[Wighty]

I think the fact he can make the problem disappear for a while pal , suggests it cant be anything but brakes related , no ?

That’s a good point pal

 

[Janchee]

Hey Jimbo - How are you getting on? Took my car in today to have it checked over as the judder is just so annoying ...

Mechanic has asked if the car had any serious bangs i.e. potholes ... I said no however, the misses chipped up and said oh I did hit one the other day and it made a bit of a bang ...

Anyway, mechanic looked it over and said everything seemed OK i.e alloys and discs. He said that he had a previous situation where the Wheel bearing or actual HUB were damaged as a result of the pothole. He thinks this is a similar situation based on his observations. Car is going in for some more stringent tests i.e. run-out on disc etc.

Have you tried the wheel bearings or hubs? It doesn't take a lot for the balls in the bearing to scar the roller edges (due to the large amount of force from a pothole).

I've also read a bit more online where people similar to yourself have replaced discs/pads many times ... to conclude in the end that every time they put a new disc on ... they're putting it on a warped hub hence after 500 miles ... the problem would return.

Just some ideas for thought ... they may be absolute tosh! Will let you know how my e-class gets on however, I know your coupe has low profile alloys ... a pot holes favourite!

BR

Jan

 

[Jimbo1959]

Have you checked the discs for runout ? With a dial gauge

Nope, I don't have a dial guage sadly.

 

[Jimbo1959]

Hey Jimbo - How are you getting on? Took my car in today to have it checked over as the judder is just so annoying ...

Mechanic has asked if the car had any serious bangs i.e. potholes ... I said no however, the misses chipped up and said oh I did hit one the other day and it made a bit of a bang ...

Anyway, mechanic looked it over and said everything seemed OK i.e alloys and discs. He said that he had a previous situation where the Wheel bearing or actual HUB were damaged as a result of the pothole. He thinks this is a similar situation based on his observations. Car is going in for some more stringent tests i.e. run-out on disc etc.

Have you tried the wheel bearings or hubs? It doesn't take a lot for the balls in the bearing to scar the roller edges (due to the large amount of force from a pothole).

I've also read a bit more online where people similar to yourself have replaced discs/pads many times ... to conclude in the end that every time they put a new disc on ... they're putting it on a warped hub hence after 500 miles ... the problem would return.

Just some ideas for thought ... they may be absolute tosh! Will let you know how my e-class gets on however, I know your coupe has low profile alloys ... a pot holes favourite!

BR

Jan

Thanks Jan, this seems a good possiblity, I've also noticed that there is an almost burnt line (black sooty looking) in the paint of the hub section of the new front discs, which have only been on the car for approx, 400-500 miles, plus I've had to get one wheel re jigged and straightened out after a hard hit on a pothole.

A technician I had asked for a second opinion reported that, in his opinion, the wheel bearings were a little loose and that would cause potential overheating on the hub section, but, that shouldn't cause the issues I have been experiencing.

However after reading your report I suspect that you might be onto something there, plus, I might be experiencing the same issue so, I will be following your feedback with interest.

I need to get to the bottom of this soon, it's driving me round the bend. So much so, that I actually seriously looked at buying a different car today, I just couldn't go through with it though as, when I viewed both cars together today, mine looked so much better despite being a couple of years older and it was better equiped too.

I discovered I will be keeping my Coupé, but, for my own sanity, I need to get to the bottom of this.

 

[Jimbo1959]

F*ck it!

I'm going to get two new sets of front wheel bearings fitted and get the hubs checked out, fortunately I can also get two new discs under warranty because they have been on the car or less than a thousand miles and already seem to be warped.

The joys of working parts in the motortrade.

 

[Janchee]

Thanks Jan, this seems a good possiblity, I've also noticed that there is an almost burnt line (black sooty looking) in the paint of the hub section of the new front discs, which have only been on the car for approx, 400-500 miles, plus I've had to get one wheel re jigged and straightened out after a hard hit on a pothole.

A technician I had asked for a second opinion reported that, in his opinion, the wheel bearings were a little loose and that would cause potential overheating on the hub section, but, that shouldn't cause the issues I have been experiencing.

However after reading your report I suspect that you might be onto something there, plus, I might be experiencing the same issue so, I will be following your feedback with interest.

I need to get to the bottom of this soon, it's driving me round the bend. So much so, that I actually seriously looked at buying a different car today, I just couldn't go through with it though as, when I viewed both cars together today, mine looked so much better despite being a couple of years older and it was better equiped too.

I discovered I will be keeping my Coupé, but, for my own sanity, I need to get to the bottom of this.

If the tech said that the wheel bearings are a little loose - this can cause the judder. When the brakes are applied, it is causing a lever effect on the axle hence the constant judder.

I would attempt the following

1. Dial gauge for disc run out
2. Hold the Axle housing and spin the wheel - can you feel any vibrations?

In my case - if my alloy isn’t buckled and the tyre didn’t blow - something has got to absorb that pothole smack from a horizontal force point of view...

 

[Jimbo1959]

If the tech said that the wheel bearings are a little loose - this can cause the judder. When the brakes are applied, it is causing a lever effect on the axle hence the constant judder.

I would attempt the following

1. Dial gauge for disc run out
2. Hold the Axle housing and spin the wheel - can you feel any vibrations?

In my case - if my alloy isn’t buckled and the tyre didn’t blow - something has got to absorb that pothole smack from a horizontal force point of view...

I suspect that we are on the right track here Jan, I can suggest that these checks are done prior to the fitment of the new wheel bearings to obtain confirmation of our suspicions.

However, I feel I don't need the dial guage to confirm what I already know, the discs are warped. I can feel it through the seat of my pants and through the steering wheel, there is a roughness present that there should not be on a Mercedes. They are generally one of the smoothest driving cars I have ever experienced.

I had not driven my car for almost a week when I drove it today, on the new by-pass built around the town I live in, which, I might add is wonderfully smooth when driven in every other vehicle owned by my family (4 cars in total), plus my works vehicle. Today when I accelerated up the by pass road I could feel the roughness through the steering wheel, in fact the more I think about this the more I am convinced we are definitely on the right track.

Please let me know how you get on and I will also update you on my progress.

 

[Janchee]

I suspect that we are on the right track here Jan, I can suggest that these checks are done prior to the fitment of the new wheel bearings to obtain confirmation of our suspicions.

However, I feel I don't need the dial guage to confirm what I already know, the discs are warped. I can feel it through the seat of my pants and through the steering wheel, there is a roughness present that there should not be on a Mercedes. They are generally one of the smoothest driving cars I have ever experienced.

I had not driven my car for almost a week when I drove it today, on the new by-pass built around the town I live in, which, I might add is wonderfully smooth when driven in every other vehicle owned by my family (4 cars in total), plus my works vehicle. Today when I accelerated up the by pass road I could feel the roughness through the steering wheel, in fact the more I think about this the more I am convinced we are definitely on the right track.

Please let me know how you get on and I will also update you on my progress.

Let's hope so eh! For the wallets sake!

Just read this interesting post by an owner of an x5 ... If you scroll down the post ... they posted a success update by sanding down the hub and wheel joining faces. This owner has been on a journey of trying to solve their problems as well!

Possibly add this to the list of items to check?

Found this as well from this link ... May be useful.

----

A subject that is close to my heart and which I recently solved.

Just had a look at the 'troubleshooting' section of the BMW TIS.

Firstly, is the judder through the brake pedal only, steering wheel only, or both?

TIS as follows on 'Pulsating effect on brake pedal':

CAUSE
1) Wheel-bearing play excessive
2) Brake disc not aligned with fist caliper
3) Brake disc runout
4) Excessive thickness deviation within braking surface.

REMEDY
1) Replace wheel bearings
2) Check floating caliper installation
3) Replace brake discs
4) Measure brake disc thickness. Grind or replace discs

BMW TIS 'Troubleshooting on front axle':

FAULT
Vibration

CAUSE
1) Wheels imbalanced
2) Rims have lateral/radial runout
3)Tires have radial runout

REMEDY
1) Balance wheel

2) Replace rims if necessary
3) Match or replace tyres

also:-

FAULT
Steering wheel shake

CAUSE
1) Wheels imbalanced
2) Rims have lateral/radial runout
3) Shock absorber effect insufficient
4) Pressure rod bearing defective
5) Excessive backlash on steering gear
6) Traction strut bearing defective

REMEDY
1) Balance wheels
2) Replace rims if necessary
3) Replace shock absorber
4) Replace traction strut mount
5) Determine pressure point and replace steering gear
6) Replace traction strut bearing.

 

[Kev555]

I had something similar on my Vito turned out to be a slight flat spot (very hard to spot) on the alloy prob from a pothole. First I got the wheels balanced then new tyres and no difference. Fitted another set of alloys after fitter mentioned flat spot when new front tyres were being fitted and steering shake was gone. Only cant figure out why your shudder was intermittent or disappeared for a while?

 

[Janchee]

I had something similar on my Vito turned out to be a slight flat spot (very hard to spot) on the alloy prob from a pothole. First I got the wheels balanced then new tyres and no difference. Fitted another set of alloys after fitter mentioned flat spot when new front tyres were being fitted and steering shake was gone. Only cant figure out why your shudder was intermittent or disappeared for a while?

Was the wheel shuddering during driving and no braking? If it goes away and then comes back like the OP suggests with new discs/pads - then it has be something to do with brakes ie the incorrect geometric setup (hubs, bearing, suspension). Interested to find out from the report of the tests!

The previous owner for my e class has fitted a new set of Run flats (I understand them - but don’t like them) so the force the alloy wheel/bearings/suspenion/hub must of absorbed would be insane.

 

[Wighty]

Nope, I don't have a dial guage sadly.

£10 on eBay , or easy job for your local garage ?

 

[Jimbo1959]

I had something similar on my Vito turned out to be a slight flat spot (very hard to spot) on the alloy prob from a pothole. First I got the wheels balanced then new tyres and no difference. Fitted another set of alloys after fitter mentioned flat spot when new front tyres were being fitted and steering shake was gone. Only cant figure out why your shudder was intermittent or disappeared for a while?

If, what I have come to suspect, is the problem, the almost constant up and down of the car having all the weight removed from the wheels replacing the discs, pads (front and rear), calipers and flexihoses has helped mask the issue and, would also explain why the issue starts off, at least, as an intermittant problem.

Sadly, I can't get the car into my garage, the cars too big to allow me to work on it properly, plus I'm too bluddy old to tolerate the cold here at the moment (-3 degrees). Working outside is very much weather dependant, and no fun when you can't feel your hands and feet after 15 minutes. Unless anyone has a cure for arthritis and diabetes up their sleeve? Non, didn't think so, shame.

Doing my own work means I only get access to my friends garage once a fortnight and even that depends on if he's available and has space, I have learned to be patient in that respect, although I must admit it's very difficult, particularly as, after corroberation with Jan van der Lubbe, I think I've discovered what the problem is and it will be relatively straight forward to fix now that I know (ok, think I know) what it is. So, as much as I want to get the job done.... Patience Aye right!

 

[Kev555]

Was the wheel shuddering during driving and no braking? If it goes away and then comes back like the OP suggests with new discs/pads - then it has be something to do with brakes ie the incorrect geometric setup (hubs, bearing, suspension). Interested to find out from the report of the tests!

The previous owner for my e class has fitted a new set of Run flats (I understand them - but don’t like them) so the force the alloy wheel/bearings/suspenion/hub must of absorbed would be insane.

Your correct Jan Van Der Lubbe, sorry if I confused the issue for the OP, I didn't have any issues under braking just on acceleration and steady speeds over 50mph. Next time I will read the OP posts more carefully. I would have to agree with you on discs or a suspension/joints problem, again interesting to see the outcome of this

 

[Jimbo1959]

Your correct Jan Van Der Lubbe, sorry if I confused the issue for the OP, I didn't have any issues under braking just on acceleration and steady speeds over 50mph. Next time I will read the OP posts more carefully. I would have to agree with you on discs or a suspension/joints problem, again interesting to see the outcome of this

It's ok Kev I understood what you were trying to get across and that it was not relevant to my issues other than a slight association in vibration so, no worries.

I suspect that my wheel bearings are the issue and are allowing excessive movement of the hub/disc assembly so as soon as I get them replaced I will update everyone with the pertinent information.

 

[Janchee]

It's ok Kev I understood what you were trying to get across and that it was not relevant to my issues other than a slight association in vibration so, no worries.

I suspect that my wheel bearings are the issue and are allowing excessive movement of the hub/disc assembly so as soon as I get them replaced I will update everyone with the pertinent information.

Hey Jimbo - I’ve got a Mercedes virtual machine running on my PC. If you need - you can send over you VIN and I’ll get all the documentation / part numbers / diagnostic guides / repair guides for your car

Thanks Kev for the reply! No worries - it’s good info for people reading this in the future!!

 

[Jimbo1959]

Hey Jimbo - I’ve got a Mercedes virtual machine running on my PC. If you need - you can send over you VIN and I’ll get all the documentation / part numbers / diagnostic guides / repair guides for your car

Thanks Jan, I've sent a private conversation pm to you with the info. I didn't want to put it on the main forum as we may have some guests who are less than scrupulous, and I don't want my car cloned.
If I need any further assistance I'll let you know, thanks again.

 

[Janchee]

So car is still in garage but this is the update from yesterday...

Good afternoon Jan,

We have road tested car, results are that at low or high speed(60mph), on braking a vibration can be felt through the car. On return the front brakes were checked for distortion, found that both front discs have a very small run out of 0.06mm, not enough in our opinion to cause the vibration. The front wheels were then balanced, the right one needed 15 grams, the left one only required 10grams. It was noted that whilst the left wheel was being balanced it showed to be badly buckled, however we are not totally convinced that this would cause the judder to this degree we have checked all suspension components all checked out in good condition all arms and bushes also check in good condition, wheel bearing’s all within tolerance. The next is process of elimination so the next step would be to either replace the wheel or have a company straighten the wheel to correct specification.

I spoke to the garage and they have said that they’ve checked the rear too. I’ve asked if they’ve got any spare wheels to put on the car to rule them out (there could be a snapped band in the tyre).

Mechanic has a Mercedes car and he has gracefully offered to take the wheels off his and put them on mine to road test. They are testing mid morning today.

Looking at the tyres that are currently on the car - The previous owner has fitted the most expensive tyres... Goodyear Eagle F1 Asymmetric 3 Runflats. About £250 a corner...

If it were the tyres - I’d just bite the bullet and swap them all for Sport 4s at about 165 per corner. Much better tyre ... and no run flat!

Garage have also said they’ve not seen any overheating damage in discs. No sticking callipers...

As mech eng - it annoys me that I can’t just strap a microphone or accelerometer to each axle and analyse the sound for frequency and power... then we would know which corner it was!

 

[Janchee]

Latest update ... they’ve put the car on MOT test rollers to see which wheel is causing judder... and it’s apparently the offside front. They believe it’s the discs and pads but I find it hard to believe the discs have a warped.

They’ve quoted £440 to fit brembo discs and new pads.

Taking the car back today without the work and looking into it deeper.