Rusting Mercedes 2007 ML.

[Frontstep]

Just the two,

How do you know exactly have we met ?


HOW DO YOU KNOW THERE HAS NEVER BEEN A SUCCESFULL CLAIM UNDER MOBILO

 

[Xtractorfan]

As malcolm has said the rust appers as spidering in the middle of panels..
There are no sharper edges than those on a spurious panel and if properly painted many of them will last as long as the car..
I have no doubt that the raw or sharp edge panel theory is put about by MB as an excuse for poor quality steel and improper treatment..
I was told 10 years ago by a guy who worked for Mb that steel quality was way below par...I had no reason to believe him then, I do now..

 

[Frontstep]

Just the two,

How do you know exactly have we met ?


HOW DO YOU KNOW THERE HAS NEVER BEEN A SUCCESFULL CLAIM UNDER MOBILO


Go on the above information would be very important to many many owners forget your spat with me!

 

[hawk20]

For those who are taken in by Television continually trying to give the impression that I deny the rust problem, or support MB’s handling of it, I suggest a glance at what I said in an earlier thread: -

“BUT fifthly and lastly there appears to have been a recent change in policy that cars without full MBSH are being rejected for free 'goodwill' rust repairs. If this is so, I think it is a retrograde step by Mercedes, will lead to ill will with those affected, and will harm Mercedes reputation with many others.

Mercedes has few greater fans than me, but I am greatly disappointed to hear of people being turned down for free remedial work for a problem which all agree should never have happened. Nobody who buys a car of Mercedes quality and price should expect to have a serious rust problem in under eight years regardless of whether or not they have a full MB service history or not.

Hard times often necessitate hard decisions. But this is a bad decision. Mercedes should not go back on its obligations to customers who have been sold a seriously faulty product. It may not be a legal obligation, but it is certainly a moral one.”

http://forums.mercedesclub.org.uk/showthread.php?t=39412&page=20 Posting 194

Dear Officer 305 in response to your posting number 260: - In case you missed it this was my posting earlier in the thread. Nothing between us on this point IMO.

 

[television]

In case you missed it this was my posting earlier in the thread. Nothing between us on this point IMO.

I do not think that anyone missed it, ´the post offers nothing constructive for members that have the problem of the rust

 

[hawk20]

I do not think that anyone missed it, ´the post offers nothing constructive for members that have the problem of the rust

Thank you for your kind comment -as ever.

 

[prwales]

I have just come across this post but would say that it is a very interesting one and indicative of the fall in quality after 1995. I have a 1993 G-Wagen, it has little or no rust and I can comfirm that the doors inners are wax coated. There were serious rust issues with the previous generation 460 models particularly around the rear 3/4's. In the 463 these were remedied, with an engineering solution, plastic fuel tanks replaced steel, fuel filler neck was re-routed, the exhaust re-routed and plastic shrouding protected the whole of the rear panel work. As a consequence these vehicles many of whom lead very harsh lives are not known to have rusting issues. Wax based rust proofing first arrived in the early 1980's; my Mk 2 Golf GTI was still leaking wax from its rear door when I scrapped it 2 years back, however newer VW's are not as well waxed as the first ones to recieve this treatment and I suspect that this is the case with MB and that economising has gone a stage too far in regard to rust proofing. If you can't rely on the quality of the protection do it yourself or buy another marks vehicle! I have just treated the underside of mine to several coats of black waxoyl, though in truth it hardly needed it.

 

[MB partsman]

This is not true as can be seen in most of my post.

Its a shame that the technical discussion on different parts fell flat. I asked you what the differences were many times and you failed to give any reasonable answer, just to say that MB pads were not the same as those supplied by TMD and was not an answer at all so I gave up asking.

Ok, Macolm, I will show you where to look for the answer to that question, which WAS answered by myself, and 2 others, both in general, and in a specific answer to the pads.

http://forums.mercedesclub.org.uk/showthread.php?t=70792 is the thread.
posts;
6 by KTH286
17 by myself
21 by myself
23 by myself
39 by number Cruncher
51 by myself.

I still await your answer on the question 'do you understand what is meant in your example, when they state "O.E. Quality Supplier"? '

 

[MB partsman]

from post 51.

Originally Posted by television View Post
MB partsman said that these pads are not the same, but failed to say in what ways, are they a different colour,or what, is it just the box that they come in. Once again if the MB specification was different TMD could not sell to the after market and claim to be selling original parts.
.
I have already stated what the difference in pads can be, and you Malcolm even quoted me on it!!
'As I wrote earlier in this thread, pads can look identical, but actually be very different.
ie, there is very many different compounds of friction material, '

 

[television]

Ok, Macolm, I will show you where to look for the answer to that question, which WAS answered by myself, and 2 others, both in general, and in a specific answer to the pads.

http://forums.mercedesclub.org.uk/showthread.php?t=70792 is the thread.
posts;
6 by KTH286
17 by myself
21 by myself
23 by myself
39 by number Cruncher
51 by myself.

I still await your answer on the question 'do you understand what is meant in your example, when they state "O.E. Quality Supplier"? '

Do not try and tell me what I do not understand thank you.

Back to the question in hand.
No one has said what the difference is,, different is not an answer.

If you do not know and fail to put up some technical fact then there is little point in discussing it further.

 

[MB partsman]

Do not try and tell me what I do not understand thank you.

Back to the question in hand.
No one has said what the difference is,, different is not an answer.

If you do not know and fail to put up some technical fact then there is little point in discussing it further.

As I have already said, the difference is the compound that the friction material is made from.
After market pads, on the whole, cover a multitude of applications, where as the OE listing will be more vehicle specific.
put in basic terms, one part number of after market pads may cover, 2, 3, or more OE part numbers.
This will affect, to a greater or lesser extent, fade resistance, the braking distance, in wet, and in dry conditions, the 'feel' of the brakes, and the wear characteristics of the friction material AND the brake discs.

That said, things today are better that in the past, largely due to the ECE regulation 90

for more technical facts look here - http://www.safelinebrakes.com/brake-pads/tech-advice.html

 

[television]

Obviously if there was a difference then it is only the compound, but the answer is still not good enough.

You say that those supplied by TMD will have to cater for several makers, that is not an answer either.

You cannot say that MB original pads are
better in the dry,
better in the wet
better for fade
better for wear
better for squeal
better on feel

Simply because its impossible to have all of those characteristics in one pad.

The brake pad after market is huge world wide, by now if there had been any difference at all measurable someone would have taken the maker to the high court.

Everyone that had used EBC red pads comment about the much better braking over the MB standard pads.

I am in the middle of composing a letter to a manufacture for a clearer understanding on this.

As it stands with insufficient information the matter can go on hold.

 

[MB partsman]

Obviously if there was a difference then it is only the compound, but the answer is still not good enough.

You say that those supplied by TMD will have to cater for several makers, that is not an answer either.

You cannot say that MB original pads are
better in the dry,
better in the wet
better for fade
better for wear
better for squeal
better on feel

Simply because its impossible to have all of those characteristics in one pad.

The brake pad after market is huge world wide, by now if there had been any difference at all measurable someone would have taken the maker to the high court.

Everyone that had used EBC red pads comment about the much better braking over the MB standard pads.

I am in the middle of composing a letter to a manufacture for a clearer understanding on this.

As it stands with insufficient information the matter can go on hold.

I agree that one pad cannot have the highest level of all those characteristics, but the pad as fitted by the vehicle manufacturer, will have the best combination for the average user and the average usage, this combination obtained after much testing, both on testbeds, track testing, and 'real world' testing.

As in many things, the 'feel' of a certain type of pad is largely subjective, and Id guess that is where most peoples comments on EBC red pads is based, to measure the other factors would require intensive independent testing.

Anyway, I have attempted to answer your question, in a way that most forum readers could hopefully understand, and I am looking forward to any answer that you may receive from manufacturers and to that Im willing to put this discussion on temporary hold.
Oh, in your letter, it may help if you refer to your understanding of ECE R90 - that is quite important in pad suitability.

any chance you may now answer the question NC and myself put to you?

 

[television]

No because I did not ask a question as such, leave it for now

 

[MB partsman]

No because I did not ask a question as such, leave it for now

Didn't you?
OK, ill leave it for now, but I would like an answer, because understanding the definition of "O.E. Quality Supplier" is very important when making decisions on what to buy, and why.

 

[Frontstep]

"I agree that one pad cannot have the highest level of all those characteristics, but the pad as fitted by the vehicle manufacturer, will have the best combination for the average user and the average usage"


Until you have compared manufacturers with others you cannot possibly make that statement accurately.

This is some diversion from the original thread PR man strikes.

 

[television]

"I agree that one pad cannot have the highest level of all those characteristics, but the pad as fitted by the vehicle manufacturer, will have the best combination for the average user and the average usage"


Until you have compared manufacturers with others you cannot possibly make that statement accurately.

What possible reason could that pad manufacture have to make pads to another spec, why would they leave themselves wide open to being sued in a accident, these are safety items and if any accident was shown that the pad manufacture had supplied inferior parts a good few court cases would have come to light. There has never been a case yet.

The answers are not good enough, there is no foundation at all so far

 

[MB partsman]

"I agree that one pad cannot have the highest level of all those characteristics, but the pad as fitted by the vehicle manufacturer, will have the best combination for the average user and the average usage"


Until you have compared manufacturers with others you cannot possibly make that statement accurately.

So you are trying to say the vehicle manufacturers have no idea how to do R & D?

 

[MB partsman]

What possible reason could that pad manufacture have to make pads to another spec, why would they leave themselves wide open to being sued in a accident, these are safety items and if any accident was shown that the pad manufacture had supplied inferior parts a good few court cases would have come to light. There has never been a case yet.

The answers are not good enough, there is no foundation at all so far

Well Malc, you have just proven (once again) you either do not read posts properly, or do not understand ECE R90....

No case yet?
I cant be bothered looking at the moment, but I think there has been, but hopefully there will be a case very soon.
http://www.northernireland.gov.uk/news/news-deti/news-deti-020810-beware-of-dangerous.htm

 

[television]

So you are trying to say the vehicle manufacturers have no idea how to do R & D?

Well as it happens MB would tell the brake manufacture what they wanted and they would be left to do just that and MB would pay nothing for this as the brake part supplier is the one to gain from this. If MB paid anything towards the design, then on a sliding scale any parts would be MB only for a set time depending on the input and cost of any tooling.