Advice on diagnostic equipment

[Botus]

I was talking to the snap on man on Friday about their diagnostic kit,

he claims none of their gear in the UK can do passthrough programming. (flashing modules with updates taking the latest correct software direct from the manu servers). This would seem to line up with what you see in USA where both Autel and Snap on can do it... but no one talks about it in the UK. He was saying its a legal thing. When it all goes wrong and something breaks, who's at fault? He suggested the rounds of debate in Europe haven't happened yet. Is it

the owner for hoping to make his car work correctly
the manufacturer for sending a dodgy update
the internet company allowing china to hack the stream and steal data during the download
the electricity company for pushing a spike down the line as the car was programming
the garage for not buying a decent power supply
the diagnostic tool not following the right protocols at the right time
or the grunt doing the work badly

 

[Kev555]

Think thats a minefield for everyone from the owner to the manufacturer. I think it would be a good idea to let specialist indies and ECU specialists have access to manufacturers software

 

[LostKiwi]

This again raises the whole question of who owns the software? Does MB own it or does the owner of the vehicle own it but MB retains copyright (much like a book for example)?

 

[Botus]

both Merc and BMW have a daily subscription rate to login and get the latest info and software....

I forget which but I think one is 30 quid and the other 60 quid.... BUT if no one is supporting the passthrough with aftermarket kit who's logging in? or maybe I came across how you can do it in USA and it was in dollars ?

 

[rash.m2k]

Best diagnostic? A £15 cable from aliexpress (tactrix open port full chip) and xentry software. Obviously wouldn't trust this to reprogramme and ECU, but for diagnostic, live data, clearing codes, it gives dealer level diagnostics. It's already saved me many hundreds of £.

 

[badger_wazzala]

At the exorbitant purchase price my car was, I don't think I'd even dare to connect any chinese software to my ecu even as a read-only relationship.
I find it doubtful I could afford the replacement of my ecu's if a corrupt file infected the car, much like fighting those dreadlock flying sentry things Keanu had to in the Matrix.

 

[Barnesautos]

I’ve used the search function and cannot seem to find any info relating to star diagnosis repair.

Long story short , I have a Chinese clone 2008-2010 das / Xentry and the multiplexer is at fault and was looking to maybe just get this repaired. I purchased it a while back so I do appreciate it is old.
Does anyone know someone or who can recommend for repairing the item.

Thank you.

 

[Botus]

At the exorbitant purchase price my car was, I don't think I'd even dare to connect any chinese software to my ecu even as a read-only relationship.
I find it doubtful I could afford the replacement of my ecu's if a corrupt file infected the car, much like fighting those dreadlock flying sentry things Keanu had to in the Matrix.

unless you have big money kit there is NO way you can talk to the car to do any harm, it just allows ripping fault info off the diagnostic port

a 15 quid adaptor and a 10 quid app will do NO harm whatsoever.... it might give gibberish info about a fault and will certainly give you no clue how to cure it...

any >£270 device should give the exact word for word description of the fault code exactly as the manufacturer does... and will allow you to ask it to go away. If it was a bug that helps, if it was fixed, then the car is clear helping for next time. If its real and still faulty it will just reappear

then you go to 2k devices that allow some 2 way comms, mostly fairly harmless unless wipe injector info or such, but might let you check / adjust the rain sensor calibration...

to overwrite modules with bug free software from the manufactures own responsory - that should be on the car - you need £4k kit
or fake one manu only dealer replica kit, which can let you bodge old but possibly less bad versions pre 2012 (crica £900)

 

[ajlsl600]

Mercedes are very clever, they don’t put all wiring and modules in unless it’s part of the build sheet, so if it wasn’t spec’d from new it won’t have it. Very different from VAG where everything is there you just have to activate it

U mean sneaky.very.

 

[Botus]

no, its a new thing on VWs they are planning an upgrade path for owners.

BMW have licencing that you need to have, it entitles you to maint support and hassle free updates. Its comes when you have bought the FSC licencing code for the software you want to use.... "the vehicle order" shows what BM support and will flash if they do updates

Mercedes are similar, the "data card" shows what legitimate equipment is on the vehicle

As for wires being there or not it really depends how the supplier and the manufacturer bother to work together and really understand the costing of a car....

managing the construction, production sequencing, stock control, logistics and spares availability at the supplier, alongside the need to create differing manuals and documentation and to train workers on the differing fitment of, and to ensure each vehicle is built to the correct specification is hideous. Add that mess to the different electrical drawings, software coding and testing needed to ensure the cars operate safely / correctly will cost many hundreds of thousands more than including the two wires you need to make the Bluetooth work

If they had any brains they would do exactly what VW just worked out and add an upgrade path that would appeal to many aspiring owners and the cost of adding and enabling toys after build would be a simple reliable and safe way to increase revenue... and build brand loyalty...

So we must leave the wires on the shelf with the other 6 loom types that model can be built with and pay £100 quid in additional unnecessary complexity per car to save the 17 pence leaving the wires out really saved...

If accountants had a brain and could talk to others they might have worked that out...

 

[Jim2]

U mean sneaky.very.

That would seem like a lot of trouble to go through

no, its a new thing on VWs they are planning an upgrade path for owners.

BMW have licencing that you need to have, it entitles you to maint support and hassle free updates. Its comes when you have bought the FSC licencing code for the software you want to use.... "the vehicle order" shows what BM support and will flash if they do updates

Mercedes are similar, the "data card" shows what legitimate equipment is on the vehicle

As for wires being there or not it really depends how the supplier and the manufacturer bother to work together and really understand the costing of a car....

managing the construction, production sequencing, stock control, logistics and spares availability at the supplier, alongside the need to create differing manuals and documentation and to train workers on the differing fitment of, and to ensure each vehicle is built to the correct specification is hideous. Add that mess to the different electrical drawings, software coding and testing needed to ensure the cars operate safely / correctly will cost many hundreds of thousands more than including the two wires you need to make the Bluetooth work

If they had any brains they would do exactly what VW just worked out and add an upgrade path that would appeal to many aspiring owners and the cost of adding and enabling toys after build would be a simple reliable and safe way to increase revenue... and build brand loyalty...

So we must leave the wires on the shelf with the other 6 loom types that model can be built and pay £100 quid in additional unnecessary complexity per car to save the 17 pence leaving the wires out really saved...

If accountants had a brain and could talk to others they might have worked that out...

I find that hard to understand too, that instead of making a standard harness for one model, with all posible connections available on it, they basically make indivduall harnesses for eack level within the range. Strange, in an industry that literally counts pennies when it comes to peoicing builds.

 

[Botus]

That would seem like a lot of trouble to go through


I find that hard to understand too, that instead of making a standard harness for one model, with all posible connections available on it, they basically make indivduall harnesses for eack level within the range. Strange, in an industry that literally counts pennies when it comes to peoicing builds.

because the manufacturers appear a bit short-sighted.

they pass the issue on to the supplier and believe they won... As the majority of the agro, costs and complexity is held exclusively by the parts supplier - however the manufacturer is too simple to realise all those costs are just passed back in the purchase cost of every part...

the big corporations seem to believe everyone works as a charity for them... its like outsourcing everything you once did in-house... the third party doing it now is doing it for a profit, but have their own overhead structure, thus end up needing to pay min wage to the ones doing the work. Ultimately you get a weaker service for the same costs.... rather than working as a business to run things ethically paying people so they can afford to live.

 

[Jim2]

because the manufacturers appear a bit short-sighted.

they pass the issue on to the supplier and believe they won... As the majority of the agro, costs and complexity is held exclusively by the parts supplier - however the manufacturer is too simple to realise all those costs are just passed back in the purchase cost of every part...

the big corporations seem to believe everyone works as a charity for them... its like outsourcing everything you once did in-house... the third party doing it now is doing it for a profit, but have their own overhead structure, thus end up needing to pay min wage to the ones doing the work. Ultimately you get a weaker service for the same costs.... rather than working as a business to run things ethically paying people so they can afford to live.

I think that it originally started with the accountants...and cost cutting!!! Which has been the bane of not only motor manufacturing, but manufacturing of every kind..... The BMW N47 timing chain debacle being a classis case, but its not the only one. What seems to be happening now is that major car manufacturers design a brand new model, then produce the body assembly in their own plant. Everything else that can be outsourced, is outsourced. I remember some time ago getting a service kit for a ford focus, but it came marked as "Peugeot"..and yes, it fitted because it was the same PSA engine. Something to do with global marketing I think, and inter-changeability of parts. But the bottom line is, whatever the badge says, it might be the only genuine part on the car .

 

[ajlsl600]

Yet another thing buyers need to be aware of. The fit one type of harness must be cheaper in long run in supply and stock situations.
Like a lot of todays stuff I dont get it.

 

[LostKiwi]

Yet another thing buyers need to be aware of. The fit one type of harness must be cheaper in long run in supply and stock situations.
Like a lot of todays stuff I dont get it.

Probably find they have computerised manufacturing so they just get the supplier to run one up as and when required. Nothing to store but a computer file.
Might explain why some parts take ages to get.

 

[ajlsl600]

Probably find they have computerised manufacturing so they just get the supplier to run one up as and when required. Nothing to store but a computer file.
Might explain why some parts take ages to get.

Maybe.but if all suppliers made one harness for all of one model type thats pretty fool proof as well also easier to change specs along production run.
It is wot it is ,and something I would now have to consider in the unlikely event of changing to yet another modern car (headache )

 

[Kev555]

I apologise if any forum members are accountants in advance but a shrewd business man I know once said to me to not take business advice from your accountant. I have always listened to my accountant with a pinch of salt ever since

 

[LostKiwi]

I apologise if any forum members are accountants in advance but a shrewd business man I know once said to me to not take business advice from your accountant. I have always listened to my accountant with a pinch of salt ever since

A friend of mine who is an accountant always said "If a business is in trouble get the accountant to sort it out but once it's back on its feet get rid of them".

 

[hmang]

Ah, something else I’ve learned already. Thanks for the info.
Greedy Merc edes.

what's greedy about not fitting something that hasn't been paid for ?