Newbie with a question, please...

[lakeside]

When starting, cold or hot, you should not touch the throttle at all. It doesn't have an automatic choke, being fuel injected. Idle speed should be about 1000rpm on starting from cold, dropping to about 800. The idle speed is electronically controlled, and adjusted in conjunction with the mixture, whilst monitoring the co2 output. Also, the throttle cable adjustment should be checked. In other words, a Bosch injection specialist should do it. Depending on what part of Wales you live in, maybe another member could recommend one?
Glad your liking it so far!

 

[television]

All we have is that it a 124 1990 any chance of the VIN number so that we know what we are talking about. there were many changes around this time in the injection systems used, in the end it would be best done by a specialist as lakside says.

So the vin please WDB124--- the next 3 numbers please


Malcolm

 

[hawk20]

I collected 'Bluebell' this morning
Although all the paperwork says it is an automatic, it's actually a manual, 5 speed gear box. (Something need to notify a change of spec for.) Also, I believe the speedometre is very inaccurate - I was seriously NEVER doing 40mph in 2nd gear and a flow of slow moving traffic outside a school today. Is there a way to check/test this, short of following another vehicle holding a specific speed? Could it simply be sticking a bit after having not been driven for a while?

Thanks,
Al

Seems very odd that all the paperwork says it is an automatic, yet in reality it is manual. Anyone any ideas on this? Ask the dealer if he has an explanation????

Alison please ignore the bad advice you were given by a 'senior member' to fit ILLEGAL 90/100 watt headlamp bulbs. If you are involved in an accident, and the other car claims it was dazzled, you will be in trouble very deep. Illegal, dangerous and very anti-social.

 

[AlisonH]

I think I must be having a 'blond' (or more like 'senior silver') moment here. :Oops:

Lakeside - So if it's not auto choke, does it have a choke at all? (I'm bidding on a manual, honest! ) Are you saying all I need to do is turn the key and it should cold start straight away?

I'm not far from Pontypridd, but will ask around to see if there is a Bosch injection specialist locally. There's an auto electrical place in Treforest. Yes, it does feel like the throttle cable/pedal needs a toe under it... memories of an escort estate I once owned, and toeing under the throttle pedal at every junction! Will love it even more if I can get on top of the secret to starting it easily! (Having mobility problems, I really am dependent on my vehicle.)

Malcolm - The VIN is: WDB124081...

Hawk20 - I have spoken with the previous owner, and they apparently notified the DVLA that the car had been changed from auto to manual, but that wasn't recorded on the log book. They are going to notify that change again and also the change of class from PLG to Disabled when sending in their part of the log book to notify the sale. It has been off the road, according to the old tax disk, since December 2004!

As for fitting illegal lights - no, that wouldn't appeal to me anyway, thanks. I quite agree - illegal, dangerous, and most anti-social. One of my pet hates - having light-sensitive eyes and special anti-glare specs for driving - are over-bright and badly adjusted head lights. In reality, I very seldom drive at night.

Thanks all for your help. I really do appreciate it.

 

[davidsl500]

I am going to have a few intelligent guesses as to the likely problems and maybe members with W124 experience would like to comment?

If all the documentation suggests it should be an automatic then maybe at some stage it has had an auto box problem and this has been replaced with a manual box ( probably from a breaker) or possibly the whole engine and box has been replaced. The way to check this is to check whether the engine number agrees with the log book and with the vin plate on the vehicle. To check the "original build" specification then tell us your VIN number and we can check the specifications of the vehicle as originally built by Mercedes.

If your speedo seems inaccurate this may be due to the swap from auto to manual. If the speedo cable runs off the gearbox then then the gearing may be different and thus the speedo readings would be wrong?

The economy meter, I think, is a simple vacuum gauge. If there is a leak in the intake side of the fuel system then the gauge would read low nearly all the of the time. A vacuum leak would also cause poor starting and it maybe that the engine idle speed has been raised to keep it running.

I think the first step is to get the VIN number so we can see what it started life as and then check the engine number on your documentation against the actual number on the engine and on the VIN Plate on the vehicle to see what agrees with what !

I am only taking an educated guess but the problems seem to be related..

 

[hawk20]

Hawk20 - I have spoken with the previous owner, and they apparently notified the DVLA that the car had been changed from auto to manual, but that wasn't recorded on the log book. They are going to notify that change again and also the change of class from PLG to Disabled when sending in their part of the log book to notify the sale. It has been off the road, according to the old tax disk, since December 2004!
.

Alison, if what you say is right, then as Davidsl500 says a lot of the problems may be coming from this odd change from auto to manual. I think you have a perfect right to take the car back to the garage, say it is not what they said it was, or the papers supplied with it say it is, and you would like them to find you an automatic one that is normal and straight to replace it, please. Over 95% of Mercedes in UK are auto and they are much easier to drive. The manual, with the foot operated parking brake is a bit of a nightmare especially for hill starts and you will find the auto much easier. It could be that this car was sold because of all the problems caused by the changeover from manual to auto. I would seriously think about getting them to change it to a car without all the problems -on the grounds that it is not what you were told, or what its papers say it is. Disappointing but cut your losses while you can do so and get a good one instead. You could easily end up with bills greater than the car is worth and it still won't be as good as it should be if they hadn't chopped it about.

If you are in the AA or RAC -and you will need to be with this car, I fear - then if you decide not to heed my advice and get the garage to take it back and change it, then at least get the AA or RAC to do a vehicle inspection for you. They will also advise you on your rights and on whether it was legal for the garage to sell you the car with changes not shown on its papers. My sad guess is that such an inspection will tell you this is not the car you should risk your life, your money and your patience on. Ask them what they think of the garage selling you the car in this state.

 

[AlisonH]

Mmmm... Certainly something to think about. Apart from this, it really is in vg condition for a 1990 vehicle. The garage concerned found it for me, rather than a case of me buying it from the garage, if that makes sense? Technically, it was a private sale.

Anyway, the VIN number is: WDB1240812F137435

Oddly enough, and although I found it a bit strange at first, the foot/hand brake is easier for me to operate than hauling up a normal handbrake using my left hand. Around here it is all hills, many of them steep, and so far I've managed to co-ordinate releasing the brake well and without any rolling backwards even on what is probably a 3:1 hill. It's just a flick of the fingers at the right moment and as the clutch rises and the throttle's depressed.

BTW, the previous owner had a stroke, hence why the car was originally taken off the road.

One more thing I forgot to mention - it came with a great stack of spare parts, including what looks like the top of an engine! All that is still currently sitting in the rear of the car, as I can't lift it out and have nowhere to put it at the moment. Weather permitting, I'll try and take a photo of it all.

 

[television]

OK the car is a 1990 no exact build date shown with 102.963 engine.

If the diff (rear axle) has not been changed,this would could account for the speedometer being out. the are two axel ratio's, the speedo drive is taken from the rear of the box.

Re the idle speed the correct idle speed is 650-700 RPM for KE jetronic fitted to this car. Car made for auto transmision had an idle control relay that would set the idle speed, the switch on the throtle cable would switch between the idle relay and the main computer, there was also a switch on the gear shift (auto) so that when in D it would increase the engine idle,same for air con. We do not know now what has happened to the idle relay or how it switches over to the main computer, indeed if it does now.

The next snag is that there was a change in many of the components in the KE injection that took place 1989/1990. the early versions had an idle speed screw just in front of the fuel distributor,under the air filter box a large srew with a slot head ½" diameter, this was dispenced with on later versions when they went over to a rotory idle adjuster, and I have not got a clue what is fitted on this car.

I do not know how all of the above can be sorted out, indeed if it can.

Malcolm

 

[Blobcat]

Here is the Vin decoded

VINWDB1240812F137435
Model200TE
Chassis1240812F137435
Engine102963 22 015251
Transmission722400 02 879027
Order0 0 537 74663
Approx. year1990
LightsBOSCH
WiperBOSCH
Cab00065
DealerGreat Britain(537)
Interiorcloth blue(062)
Paint147arctic white (T) (с 01.01.1985 по 31.12.1993)
Options
240outside temperature indicator (с 01.03.1982)
341additional lamp (с 01.09.1982)
362
412electric sliding roof with tilting device (с 01.07.1983)
420automatic transmission, floor shift (с 01.01.1963)
467central locking system and instruments with english lettering (с 01.04.1970 по 31.10.1993)
524paintcoat preservation (с 01.01.1964)
532automatic antenna without radio set (с 01.01.1963)
547double roller blind and sun visors with mirrors on the left and right, illuminated (с 01.03.1982 по 31.07.1997)
550trailer coupling (с 01.03.1965)
570folding armrest front w202/210 stowage box front with armrest (с 01.04.1970)
front folding armrest w202 - housing at front with armrest
584electric window lifters (front and rear doors) (с 01.04.1970)
electric window lifters, fourfold or sixfold
593heat-insulating glass, all-around, heated rear window pane (single-sheet safety glass), band filter
green heat-insulating glass all round, heated rear window, single pane safety glass - tinted strip (с 01.01.1972)
600headlamp wiper/washer (с 01.08.1971)
613lamp unit, asymmetrical, l.h. traffic (с 01.02.1963)
722baggage rack, integrated (с 01.07.1981)
724cargo anchorage (с 01.04.1979)
812rear-mounted loudspeaker (с 01.11.1974)
844folding seat bench in loading compartment, reverse to direction of travel (с 01.10.1977)

 

[lakeside]

Alison, there is a Mercedes specialist in Pontypridd - I've heard good things about them, but not used them myself - http://www.stuttgartgarage.co.uk/. I agree, the change from auto to manual would bring up a lot of issues, ECU and vacuum related.

And no, it doesn't have a choke. If all is as it should be, you do not need to touch the throttle while starting, hot or cold - the ECU sorts it all out.

 

[AlisonH]

Thanks, guys. I'm feeling quite deflated now.

However, I did manage to start it this morning after it was parked facing uphill in the shelter of north facing buildings last night in near freezing conditions. It fired first turn of the key - then died! Same as yesterday after that, and it finally picked up the revs enough to allow me to keep in going by playing with the throttle. I let it warm up for about five minutes then before feeling confident enough to attempt the hill start. Took it for a quick spin around the block, then managed to find a big enough parking space facing south and nearer to the house. I don't need it again today, so will see if that makes any difference in the morning.

The idling speed has now dropped a little further - 1,250 or there abouts.

I looked, but couldn't see an engine number/plate, but that could be down to not being able to lean forwards and crane my neck into obscure places.

I took a couple of photos, which I will attempt to upload.

 

[AlisonH]

Well, I have discovered an owner's manual amongst a stack of old receipts - nothing to indicate when it was changed to manual or why, though.

Regarding what it says about the gauge for economical driving - that has me looking for a head-scratching emoticon! :lol:

'... If the pointer is in the red field on the RH side, this means a higher fuel consumption; if it is in the black field on the LH side, this indicates more economical driving. This applies to the respective gear engaged.

The gauge is not designed for consumption comparisions in the individual gears. Here applies the following rule: When driving at a given speed, consumption will be lower in the higher gear, although the pointer generally will be in the red area.' :???:

Okay, that makes perfect common sense... up to the very last bit! If it is generally in the red, then realistically, you can bet your life it will never hit black with the sort of driving conditions I generally encounter! (I.e. Low gears, rough tracks, steep hills, up to about half a ton of animal feed in the back and rarely the chance to engage 4th gear, let alone 5th!)

That being the case, I am inclined to dump the false pride illusion of ever managing to drive it economically and achieve a black mark reading, and just block off about that gauge! Economy mode would be nice, but I don't do a high mileage or need/have many opportunities to drive at high speeds, and the practical aspects of what the vehicle offers are my main priority, as long as the vehicle is safe and legal etc. End of the day, I needed a practical, very comfortable, replacement 'muck truck', not a family car.

Logical head on - as I understand it, while parked up, the car was being started easily enough on a weekly basis and had been used on private land to move caravans around. If it was starting easily enough then, I can't help wondering why it isn't now? Afterall, it was professionally tuned only a couple of days ago to deal with the emmisions problem for the MOT. I can't help wondering if the starting problem has something to do with changing some setting that possibly didn't need changing? The engine would have been warm when attending for that tune-up, so no starting problem would necessarily have shown up until the following morning - and it was kept indoors the previous night, whereas I then had it outside and during very wet/cold conditions. (I had an old Lada estate once that hated the rain and I probably got through more cans of WD40 with that than I did engine oil!) Will see what I can find out tomorrow at the garage and perhaps then pop down and have a chat with someone at Stuttgart's - thanks for that, Lakeside. If I can get the starting issue resolved, at this stage I don't feel inclined to give up on the car and cut my losses. The guys at my regular garage have always been really good over any problems and go out of their way to help resolve anything. I'm not one to get 'arsy' or confrontational. Would far rather work with people to resolve things quietly, and generally find that works best in the long term.

As for the speedo - at least it is on the right side of wrong and IMO showing at least 10 mph faster than the car is actually travelling when showing 40 mph. I'll see what I can do to check that out, and meanwhile err on the side of caution and even if it means irritating the speed merchants on my tow hitch!

I'll also check out the actual fuel consumption when I can afford to fill the tank right up - assuming the starting issue can be resolved first! Meanwhile I guess cultivating patience and allowing plenty of time will be the otrder of the day. Once it has been cold started for the first time in a day, it starts fine for the rest of that day.

BTW, the car's previous MOT expired last September - I have that in with the bundle of receipts. For that test (Sept '05) it had new brake disks, an indicator unit and a ball joint fitted. Since then, and up until I first saw it, it had done less than 20 miles!

 

[mattsurf]

Have a look around for a mercedes plastic boot liner - solid platic base and 3 sides about 30cm high - I have one in my W124. It is excellent for carrying dirty objects - you can then remove it and hose it down

 

[Hibbo]

As far as I understand, the only thing that would upset the speedo is a change of final drive ratio.

The speedo drive is taken from the propshaft drive on the back of the gearbox. So regardless of gearbox, it's only an incorrect diff/speedo combination that can throw the speedo off.

Do all petrol 124s use the same final drive ratio?

Has it hand a new diff or instrument cluster?

 

[Stircrazy]

Alison

I think all the things you are thinking are correct.

It looks quite smart and runs.

For the price it looks the business.

OK it is a car that has been sorted on the cheap but it's 16 yrs old!

The guys that found it for you probably thought much the same and can probably advise you if it has probs.

PS could it be a carburettor model?

Also you have lots of spare parts! Maybe from something else though!

Again the boys down the garage could advise.

All this "take it to the main dealer" "Get your money back" stuff is rubbish.

With a bit of luck and common sense you should be fine.

 

[AlisonH]

...Do all petrol 124s use the same final drive ratio?

Has it hand a new diff or instrument cluster?

I wouldn't have a clue about the answer to the first question, and don't know the answer to the second. The old receipts date back to Feb 1998, when the car seems to have been in Surrey, but there are no receipts showing for a diff or instrument panel amongst them, not that that is anything to go on. There's nothing on any of the receipts to indicate whether they were pre or post the change from an auto to a manual gearbox, either. The only diff/axle related invoice I can find relates to replacement rear axle springs having been fitted in '98 along with a broken antirollbar bracket.

It had a replacement wheel, a set of locking wheel bolts, a complete grille, and something simply called a 'covering' (part no. A1249103347 5B03) in '98, so might possibly have had a minor bump around that time? Most of the other receipts are simply ordinary wear and tear things like a wiper rubber, brake pads etc., and a few things I call cosmetic stuff such as mats and a badge.

 

[AlisonH]

Stircrazy, if the spare parts are anything to go by, and for the vehicle, that looks a bit like a carb amongst them... doesn't it? The lad at the garage said they were all spare parts for the vehicle, and I can't imagine why they'd have been left in it when sold if they weren't? (Even though it was being scrapped, I did remove my heap of rubbish from the Sav before that went... Well, one does... doesn't one? :lol: )

 

[television]

Alisson, the bit in you garden is fuel injection air flow for KE injection the bit I wrote out before is very valid for all of your problems,it is fact and not guesswork



If the diff (rear axle) has not been changed,this would could account for the speedometer being out. the are two axel ratio's, the speedo drive is taken from the rear of the box.

Re the idle speed the correct idle speed is 650-700 RPM for KE jetronic fitted to this car. Car made for auto transmision had an idle control relay that would set the idle speed, the switch on the throtle cable would switch between the idle relay and the main computer, there was also a switch on the gear shift (auto) so that when in D it would increase the engine idle,same for air con. We do not know now what has happened to the idle relay or how it switches over to the main computer, indeed if it does now.

The next snag is that there was a change in many of the components in the KE injection that took place 1989/1990. the early versions had an idle speed screw just in front of the fuel distributor,under the air filter box a large srew with a slot head ½" diameter, this was dispenced with on later versions when they went over to a rotory idle adjuster, and I have not got a clue what is fitted on this car.

I do not know how all of the above can be sorted out, indeed if it can.


Malcolm

 

[television]

Just to add, if the mixture setting was altered to pass emissions to get it through the test, that could be why it is hard to start now, I had to do one a few weeks ago for my local garage as once they got the emission ok it would not start again,and so they towed it round to me to fix.

Malcolm

 

[AlisonH]

Out of interest, Malcolm, how did you fix the one the garage towed around to you?

This one does start - eventually; and once started first thing, it has been starting fine during the rest of the day.

I'm going print off the relevant parts from this thread and see what the local garage guys can discover about what has and hasn't been changed tomorrow, and perhaps have a chat with the people at Stuttgarts.

It is strange how the idling speed has been decreasing of its own accord over the past few days. 2000 to 1400 and down to 1250 today. Had it been this at first, I'd probably not even have notice anything 'odd' or thought to query it in the first place.