POR 15 versus Fertran, Kurust et al.

gorselands

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I have been reading many of the 'rust' posts and for the first time heard mention POR 15 as a rust treatment. The You Tube video looks impressive ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SvcepMwqmZs). Most examples show floor pans, chassis etc. Some other owners' club posts have reported it either washing off or reacting with a top coat.

How does POR 15 stack up against Kurust, Fertran, phoshphoric acid etc? Can it be used on external bodywork, sanded, primed, top coated? Expensive and comes in fairly big quantities, so what's the shelf life?

If anyone has experience it would be useful to hear.

As the weather is getting warmer and wetter more of us will be seeing the tin worm thriving. For me, certainly, a bit of advice and discussion as to what and how regarding rust products would be really helpful.

Gorselands
 

turbopete

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por15 is now available in a starter pack and contains small quantities! kurust is total sh1te in my experience! por15 can be overpainted. i have some on order for my w210 wheelarches etc
 

PGM

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Rust Converters

Some facts
You should be aware that most of these products a "Dr Potts Miriacle solutions".

The majority are phosphoric acid based or rely on tannic acid and work by air inhibition i.e preventing air to contribute to the corrosion process. They also convert the rust to magnetite. All are short term expedients i.e. will work for a day or so before the corrosion process sets up again. None prevent corrosion undercut or are termed sacrificial.

80 %+ of all coating failures are attributable to poor surface preparation or bad application. A small minority are product production faults.

Most of the converter products appear to work on small repair areas however on a larger scale they do not work. This was proven in a comprehensive research project my last company undertook when trying to develop a commercially viable product.

One of the classic conversion product disasters was Holland 1 Britains first submarine where the product actually contributed to the corrosion process.

My advice (for what it is worth) is to use a flap wheel - medium to fine grade obtainable from Halfords to thoroughly remove corrosion product achieving a brightmetal finish. Finish with a further fine grade finish emery paper and apply a metallic zinc primer followed by applications of a vehicle undercoat/finish product.

Hope this is helpful
(I am an Independent Corrosion and Coating Specialist so I have no bias to any manufacturer)
 
OP
G

gorselands

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Many thanks turbopete and PGM for the helpful information
 

turbopete

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Some facts
You should be aware that most of these products a "Dr Potts Miriacle solutions".

The majority are phosphoric acid based or rely on tannic acid and work by air inhibition i.e preventing air to contribute to the corrosion process. They also convert the rust to magnetite. All are short term expedients i.e. will work for a day or so before the corrosion process sets up again. None prevent corrosion undercut or are termed sacrificial.

80 %+ of all coating failures are attributable to poor surface preparation or bad application. A small minority are product production faults.

Most of the converter products appear to work on small repair areas however on a larger scale they do not work. This was proven in a comprehensive research project my last company undertook when trying to develop a commercially viable product.

One of the classic conversion product disasters was Holland 1 Britains first submarine where the product actually contributed to the corrosion process.

My advice (for what it is worth) is to use a flap wheel - medium to fine grade obtainable from Halfords to thoroughly remove corrosion product achieving a brightmetal finish. Finish with a further fine grade finish emery paper and apply a metallic zinc primer followed by applications of a vehicle undercoat/finish product.

Hope this is helpful
(I am an Independent Corrosion and Coating Specialist so I have no bias to any manufacturer)

i am sure you will agree though that an acid treatment followed by an etch primer and then a suitable coating of protective paint or similar to access what cant be sorted by flap discs etc ( ie in the 'pitting' from the rust) is the next best thing to a replacement panel? this is the 3 stages that the por15 treatment consists of. and for the record i have no connection with any company either. i worked as a mechanic who did a bit of bodywork/spray painting for 14 years so i too have no brand bias! just previous experience with kurust and also experience with a similar acid/etch primer set up to por15!
 

Rappey69

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Some facts
You should be aware that most of these products a "Dr Potts Miriacle solutions".

The majority are phosphoric acid based or rely on tannic acid and work by air inhibition i.e preventing air to contribute to the corrosion process. They also convert the rust to magnetite. All are short term expedients i.e. will work for a day or so before the corrosion process sets up again. None prevent corrosion undercut or are termed sacrificial.

80 %+ of all coating failures are attributable to poor surface preparation or bad application. A small minority are product production faults.

Most of the converter products appear to work on small repair areas however on a larger scale they do not work. This was proven in a comprehensive research project my last company undertook when trying to develop a commercially viable product.

One of the classic conversion product disasters was Holland 1 Britains first submarine where the product actually contributed to the corrosion process.

My advice (for what it is worth) is to use a flap wheel - medium to fine grade obtainable from Halfords to thoroughly remove corrosion product achieving a brightmetal finish. Finish with a further fine grade finish emery paper and apply a metallic zinc primer followed by applications of a vehicle undercoat/finish product.

Hope this is helpful
(I am an Independent Corrosion and Coating Specialist so I have no bias to any manufacturer)

I find this interesting as i was recommended fertan by a highly qualified marine surveyor/designer/shiprite...
Fertans site claim that a coating of the stuff is more effective than shot blasting. Fertan gives 10x more protection than none at all.
modern red oxide is a total waste of space whereas the original lead one (which can still be sourced) is very very good.
Fertan can be left exposed for up to 6 months.
I am currently using it on a 1945 iron ship and it so far appears to be working very well.
this is a bit off topic now but the ship has tons of old chain in its bilges as ballast which physically cannot be removed but it is rusting and causing the inside of the hull to rust too.
A man from fertan is comming to inspect what is happening and to see if a mass application is suitable.
Do you have any better suggestions?
 

Dosco

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I would be happy to discuss further 02089436142
rgds
Peter

Peter, suggest you remove your phone number and request a PM, one never knows who is reading these posts;)
 

PGM

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many thanks for advice I have deleted message (can you do same) and I will repost.
Appreciated.
Rgds Peter
 

Rappey69

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would be nice to have some of that stuff too then do a side by side test in a marine environment to see if they really do work well.
the preferred coating for a steel boat is to shot blast it to shiny metal then epoxy coatings,giving it protection for 20-25 years but costing on average around £25,000.
 

RobinM

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Has anyone used this rust converting product?

Having read this thread I was wondering if anyone had come across the following rust convertor product - FE 123. More details can be found on the following link:-

http://www.rust.co.uk/rust-converters.cfm
 

grober

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If you have a badly pitted steel panel then abrading it down to a clean metal surface is well nigh impossible. Under those circumstances applying any rust converter product before applying a zinc based [sacrificial] primer may markedly extend the time period before rust returns----as it surely will.:(
 

Rappey69

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Having read this thread I was wondering if anyone had come across the following rust convertor product - FE 123. More details can be found on the following link:-

http://www.rust.co.uk/rust-converters.cfm

After reading PGM,s post about rust convertors would add the above to the "miracle cures" maybe ? .
Have tried por15 on my car as it seems highly rated by classic car forums so time will tell.
Tried fertan and rustoleum, not impressed with either !
 

falcoron

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PGM is 100% correct these products are only a slow down additive not a cure, best way to "reduce " the rust returning is to clean clean and clean again. get yourself a
3M blue strip and clean wheel which can be used on a drill and get to work on the rusted area and clean as much out as you can, these are supurb as they dont take away good metal in the process. to remove rust from any pits the best way is to buy a small hand held sand plaster gun ( really cheap one will do) and fill it with, not sand or grit but dry baking soda. This will clean out any corrosion in the pits and give you a nice surface to paint onto. next apply ( as soon as possible) sone very zinc rich coating, ( preferably epoxy based) fully cure and follow with 2 pack hi build primer, which can then be smoothed down and the colour applied then a clear coat. Now i fully realise that a compressor will be needed but in the absence of this you will be looking for a professianal to do it for you. The above is NOT A CURE, but will significantly help slow down the return. I have a few small bits on my wheel arch i will be treating soon and will show you all how i do it the DIY way without compressor.
I to am in the corrosion prevention bussiness and am a fully trained paint sprayer. Please bare with me and i will show how to do small diy rust repairs that can be done outside the professional paintshop environment.
Anyone wanting further info or help please mail me.
cheers
ron
 

dieselman

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Where can you buy baking soda in quantities large enough for this, at reasonable cost?
 

tjamesbo

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What does 47p2 think

Interesting to see what classic car people / magazines say as these people are driving around in cars from the 30's 40's 50's 60's 70's 80's In cars that at the time were probably more prone to corrosion than the 97-2004 mercedes ( yes they were ! It wasnt unheard of to have complete panel perforation in 3yrs ) so whatever these guys use to keep their ford cortinas and lancia betas on the road must be worth listening to anyone know which forums they use ?
What does 47p2 say ???he must have some experience
 

falcoron

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Where can you buy baking soda in quantities large enough for this, at reasonable cost?

you wont need large amounts for doing small repairs at home with the small hand held cheapo blast applicator. Like this one for example.
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/HAND-HELD-AIR...544?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item414de91a80
Soda is a cheaper alternative to every other blast medium at about £1 per kilo and if you do need a big amount these guys will sell you 25 kg bag for under £30 http://www.frost.co.uk/

A few boxes from your local tesco's wont break the bank, but it will properly clean out any pits and leave a perfect surface for painting on a zinc primer. If only surface rust you can get this all cleaned up really well with the strip-it wheel i mentioned earlier. You will need the little arbour as well so you can attach to your drill ( can be used without on an angle grinder.
096.jpg

These are only a few quid and again do a far better job at cleaning a rusted surface than a sander or grinder will do as it wont take away any good metal ( or very little in comparison)
from this;
094.jpg

To this (in less than 5 mins work with a std house hold drill machine.)
102.jpg

101.jpg

Primed with this to protect.
105.jpg

106.jpg

Reseal the joints ( strip it wheel got rid of old cracked seam sealer as well as rust)
109.jpg

Did'nt need to finish paint this as it is covered but its as good as new a year on.
Quick easy and cheap.no snake oil cure just good honest proper preperation and good products.
 
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