Speeding

[mlc]

Mounis

Your post frightens me Please excuse me if I am wrong but it comes over an example of far to many drivers on the road.

quoting three bits of your post:

" I feel that as a professional driver (I do about 1500 miles a week in and around London) we should adhere to the following:

City/Town - Stick strictly to the speed limit. 30 means 30 esp around schools, towns parks etc. No one wants to run over little Tommy as he's crossing to get an ice-cream from the van.

Well firstly I feel I am competent enough"

I assume that you have taken extensive professional training to become a 130mph competent driver - driving 1500 miles a week just means that you get a lot of practise. I am yet to meet anyone who says "been driving for 30 years and I am still crap at it".

Travelling past a school at 30 when Tommy may be heading off to the ice cream van isnt sticking to the speed limit, its dangerous driving! The speed limit isnt a target speed, its a maxmum speed providing all other factors allow such a high speed.

Finally you must know those hidden motorways around London that are hidden from the great unwashed from the North. I cant recall a journey in the last 10 years in the south east where I could average much more than 70 due to traffic volumes, and that includes during the night. 130mph may be safe on a clear dry open road in good lighting. At night with lots of other traffic around its an accident waiting to happen.

Mark.

 

[SLinKyjoe]

I feel that as a professional driver (I do about 1500 miles a week in and around London) we should adhere to the following:

Define professional driver please

City/Town - Stick strictly to the speed limit. 30 means 30 esp around schools, towns parks etc. No one wants to run over little Tommy as he's crossing to get an ice-cream from the van.....

I think you may find that round schools the percieved hazard has reduced the accepted norm of maximum limits to 20Mph

Country - Improved signs for danger spots should highlight what to be expected but I feel the generally the limits should be stuck to as the terrain is unpredicatable and you never know when Daisy the cow might decide to appear around a corner.....

How exactly can we do this. surely this in itself will mean speed limits to control the hazard? and isnt our argument about freeing up the highways from the abatory speed limits imposed upon this free nation of ours?

Motorway
1) The speed limit at the moment sucks and should be derestricted and a LOWER LIMIT of 90mph should be set. If you cant hack the speed then don't drive on the motorway or get driver training to gain confidence. ....

Thats only going to work in dedicated lanes. altho in principle i almost agree with the sentiments if nothing else

2) Better policing of the narrow 3 lanes that we have available. All too often, an aged uncle-type will drive at 75mph in the overtaking lane and if you come on too fast from behind he will dab his brakes as to say "Son, I'm breaking the limit already at 75 so I will keep my ass infront of you. Now sod off...." even though he is daoing about the same as the cars in the middle and first lane. He will sit there for as long as he feels necessary and then when he decides he will move out of the way, slowly.......

Agree fully. This is dangerous driving as the person in front is paying far too much attention to the rear veiw mirror at the expense of looking and paying notice of whats going on in fornt to the point of preoccupation with it, and controlling other people. he would be better pulling over and letting the fool behind passed so that he may resume his bad driving on his own, in both cases here providing that is was safe and correct for him to pull over. if, of course he is genuine in that correct lane and doing 75mph as you suggest, then you need to calm down and allow others to get on with their lives.

I say lets insist on all drivers doing a minimum of 90mph (lets face it, most of us do this all the time anyway). That will encompass most 'habitual' speeders and ensure faster flow of traffic. If everyone was happy to float around 90mph more people would drive in the 'slow' lane, thus freeing up the middle and outer overtaking lanes for the faster drivers.....

Insist on minimum 90mph? is that the same as insisting on maximum 70mph? surely education and good driver training will allow people to drive at speed they feel is suitable. and if the training was comprehensive enough, and discipline was correctly exercised then this idea is redundant?

I think your post here represents some of the lack of education that persists regarding driving and speed limits in this counrty. it is a shame that nobody seems to want to grasp the nettle and do anything about it. they are far too busy banning fox hunting or stopping people smoking outside to bother about the roads. One death, at current estimates, on the roads today costs around £800,000 to the local authorities. Surley its about time we looked into the causes and reduced them by education rather than insistance of fines. no evidence yet, has produced statistics from any source, to prove that fines and speed cameras have reduced deaths on the roads. however, the statistics do prove that road cars are now a lot safer than just 10 years ago. this means as traffic increases, deaths or staying the same as more people are surviving accidents. so cars are safer. its the people driving them that need to be looked at now.

this is the point, i think, that tom made earlier.

 

[turnipsock]

Mounis has some good points there. It's true if you drive fast all the time when you back off to 90mph, it seems slow. I usually get up to 120mph every day, it doesn't seem fast anymore.

I do only go at 30mph in towns, much to the annoyance of a lot of drivers.

The dangerous guys are the ones that can't drive on their side of the road, do 40 mph in the towns and 40 mph everywhere else! If 40mph is what theyare capable of, I may as well do 120 mph past the primary school!

I used to do a lot of driving every week and was more in tune then than I am now with a daily commute.

 

[Mounis]

Hmmm...Let's rephrase...

Relax people. The claims I make I can substantiate:-

I say I am a professional driver due to the following:

1) 4 years karting experience fron the age of 14 - 18 at school - two national trophies won for being first in class.
2) Driving licence at age 17 with 0 faults
3) Advanced driving test passed at age 18 with 0 faults
4) Motorbike test passed with 0 minor faults
5) Advanced rider training completed following year (own a supersports bike capable of 180mph)
6) 3 day track-ridier training obtained and certification of competence awarded (by professional Police outriders school - same training school that the metropolitan police use)
7) Advanced driver training taken for skid control, (ROSPA Approved)
8) GNVQ in Chaufeurring - including bodyguard driver training
9) Five advanced driver training courses taken in as many years (2000 - 2005) (company car driver)
10) Hold a HGV & PSV Licence

11) Currently training to be a stunt driver

With the combination of experience (nothing teaches you as well as experience) and the training I've had I feel that I'm a professional driver. Some may disagree but when you honestly 'feel' (how unsceintific) like you can push a car to it's limits and remain in control then perhaps you're close to being a professional driver.... Yes there are alway circumstances beyond ones control. i.e. faulty tyre, brakes, streering mechanism, granny driving out of her drive too quick/too slow so you can never be 1000% in control but lets face it what I was saying I think is quite simple.

Technology/reliability in cars now has advanced to great levels where cars are designed to be safe and yet still operate in trying conditions. Proper training can allow us to fully utilise this technology - why live the stone age and slow down now? In every field of life we want/crave/desire/need ultimate speed. Why not in transportation?

Yes I fully agree 30mph around a school is perhaps stupid - may be I should have made myself clear - in urban areas drive approriately for the dangers that may lurk - i.e. schools, shops, etc but why strangle yourself on the main arteries? why should we pay speeding fines on motorways for driving at 79mph when the real offenders are the unskilled drivers? Perhaps we should funnel all the revenue from the speeding fines to training people who feel that 60 is a safe speed to drive on the motorway and 70 the absolute maximum??? Lets not persecute the competent driver who wants to get his/her job done. (and lets not confuse the 'nippier' driver I'm talking about with one who owns a Ford Escort XR3i/Fiesta XR2/Vauxhall Nova that have all had the 4" tailpipes/spring clamps to lower and tints added) I drive an E220CDI, quite capapble of the speeds I'm talking about yet would be ungainly and also slightly uncomfortable for the missus if I were to try a hand-(foot)brake turn around a mini-roundabout in Staines... or the mother-in-law in a Vauxhall Corsa 1.0i poodling along for a nice trip out to the local ASDA fully unaware of the queue of unfortunate commuters stuck behind her for half a mile, jut trying to get home ....)

Mounis

Your post frightens me Please excuse me if I am wrong but it comes over an example of far to many drivers on the road.

quoting three bits of your post:

" I feel that as a professional driver (I do about 1500 miles a week in and around London) we should adhere to the following:

City/Town - Stick strictly to the speed limit. 30 means 30 esp around schools, towns parks etc. No one wants to run over little Tommy as he's crossing to get an ice-cream from the van.

Well firstly I feel I am competent enough"

I assume that you have taken extensive professional training to become a 130mph competent driver - driving 1500 miles a week just means that you get a lot of practise. I am yet to meet anyone who says "been driving for 30 years and I am still crap at it".

Travelling past a school at 30 when Tommy may be heading off to the ice cream van isnt sticking to the speed limit, its dangerous driving! The speed limit isnt a target speed, its a maxmum speed providing all other factors allow such a high speed.

Finally you must know those hidden motorways around London that are hidden from the great unwashed from the North. I cant recall a journey in the last 10 years in the south east where I could average much more than 70 due to traffic volumes, and that includes during the night. 130mph may be safe on a clear dry open road in good lighting. At night with lots of other traffic around its an accident waiting to happen.

Mark.

As for hiding of the motorways from the great unwashed of the north? try the M40 anytime from junction 2 onwards after 10pm. If thats what you consider traffic then perhaps it's right that you should only average 70mph...

I don't mean to offend but again people make judgements based on their experience and not the 'real' users of these roads... As Mark quite rightly says his experience is of an average speed of 70mph on any motorway around London sounds about right to me. In fact try the Heathrow section of the M25 or M4 into town any weekday evening and you'll be lucky if you can get more than 50mph average...but why? Try them on the weekend and its even worse. What does that say? Perhaps the weeked drivers (who obviously have less experience then the weekday commuters) who are slowing things down... I don't know... I'm just ranting now....but those of you who have tried driving faster and have gotten comfortable with the speed be honest - is it all that much more scary if at all ? do you feel as if the car is about to suddenly take on a mind of its own and drag itself and you into the abyss of the hard shoulder ditch? do you think that you are committing a crime on the very society you live in? I think not...150mph - new national speed limit I say....

 

[Silver Arrow]

We appear to be back on the technicalities of driving at speed. I did put together a piece on energy differentials and then didn?t post it ?cos I realised I was being an old F**t.

There is a vast difference in driving quickly where everyone is going the same way at about the same pace with the same objectives as in racing. Defensive driving can be about 30mph handbrake 180 degree turns in an armoured Mercedes or Suburban, or it can be a mindset in normal situations.

Technology can help make up for skill deficiencies, The Audi Quattro has only one ESP button and won?t allow for any fiddling and tweaking. Some chaps of my acquaintance decided to try out the systems on an A class Merc and found them positively dangerous when they tried to drive it round a roundabout like a world class rallycar. The systems refused to allow for a full ?bootfull? of throttle to pull it round. However, anyone driving like a world rally driver on the road will soon incur the wrath of the law, including the world class rally drivers!

 

[SLinKyjoe]

mounis.
your post was acceptable to me. am happy to take your example for a professional driver.

i think the original idea of this thread was to discuss issues regarding speeding and whether it is acceptable or not. it seems that speeding generates an unreseasonable response in the mdeia, the public view and the law makers.

it is a civil offence and it is treated far too harshly in my view. The whoole iisue tends to be blow out of proportion by people giving views about children being run over. they try to pull your heart strings. but the statistics do not bear out the examples given. the majority of deaths on the road over the last 10 years has been people walking out into traffic. doesnt matter what speed you were going at. you are going to kill them. but this is always laid at the foot of the driver and not the pedestrian, who by God's decree, has right of way on the highway! maybes all cars should be made of rubber to stop our daft pedestrians walking out into our cars. this will reduce the number of deaths on the roads significantly and then with proper education, we may reduce to view that speeding drivers are not really the spawn of the devil.

so what we have established so far is.

drivers need better training,
pedestrians need better road safety awareness
the speeds limits need a thorough overhall to represent todays traffic

which, if any, of these do you think will happen?

 

[blassberg]

the speeds limits need a thorough overhall to represent todays traffic

I'd be happy for 20mph mandatory outside all schools. Don't want to go fast there.

 

[blassberg]

Country - Improved signs for danger spots

Absolutely.
My route to Birmingham is back-to-back speed camera signs with no cameras (they are on some of the roads going across). It makes it ridiculous trying to decide which parts of the road require special attention for being danger spots and encourages people to watch their speedo more than the hazards.

Let's tell people where the dangers are and what they are and what the speed limit is there. Put cameras up there and shoot offenders on sight if necessary.

Driving round the country is getting difficult as you now need local knowledge to keep your licence intact.

 

[SLinKyjoe]

I'd be happy for 20mph mandatory outside all schools. Don't want to go fast there.

thats fine but all day? during school holdays?and what represents a school area? one near me is back from the road which is a 30zone but the children still need to cross that road to get to it! and why not in fornt of hospitals and libraries, old peoples home, places of work where everyone come out at the same time bus stations, trains etc.**

In Australia they have speed limits for times of the day near schools. so you do 40kph thru town and drop to 20kph at the times it says between the areas it marks for you. this works.

same applies when you come in from the main roads. about 4 miles back you get 100kph if you were on a 110kph bit. 2 miles out you get 80kph and a mile out you get 60kph. at the town boundary it drops to 40kph and the same applies when speeding back up again.

the M25 has the changeable speed limits and if they were appropriately and correctly operated you would get a similar effect. altho motorway speeds are deginated by the highwways agency, on other roads its the local councils who set them.

**the problem with how limits are set here is that they are a reaction and there is no foresight to them. an attempt to change them just encourages an entrenched view from the shopkeeps and the like that seems to think being a councillor is just about looking good for the papers, instead of getting on and making your town the best in the country!

 

[mlc]

Having spent three hours this morning to travel 89 miles to Birmingham and over two hours to get back I feel I have a little bit to add to the "lets do 90 minimum and 130 average on the motorways" school of thinking.

if we assume that our learned friend is a perfect driver and safe to travel at 130 on the motorway - how do we get the rest to his standard? And what about those that cant reach this high standard, but are still capable and safe drivers, do we take their licence off them?

The next problem is all the cars that cant do 130 safetly, do we ban them from the motorway. Finally what do we do about the HGV's They are allowed in lane 2, travelling at a governed 56 mph. how do we have a motorway operating safely with sub 60 traffic and 90 minimum traffic trying to share lanes.

I am all for improvements but lets join the real world please.

Mark.

 

[Mounis]

Learned? Not at all...

The next problem is all the cars that cant do 130 safetly, do we ban them from the motorway. Finally what do we do about the HGV's They are allowed in lane 2, travelling at a governed 56 mph. how do we have a motorway operating safely with sub 60 traffic and 90 minimum traffic trying to share lanes.

I am all for improvements but lets join the real world please.

Mark.

I think people here are taking what I'm saying as an example to be set for others. Not at all. I just wanted to highlight that speeding is seen as such a demonic practice when in reality (providing competency behind the wheel) it can be an enjoyable, logical and feasible response to many peoples daily grind...

We keep talking of schools and limiting speed limits to 20 mph...why? Why not ensure children CANNOT run across a road? If we had a faster speed limits then there wouldn't be a build up of traffic around these schools. Therfore less likely hood of a child being run over during a period of time by a frustrated and tired driver. I lived in Central London for 4 years just behind Kings Cross opposite a junior school. There were never any incidents but not because of a reduced speed limit but because of sensible funneling of children out via different exits away from the road, not always feasible - but what about protective fencing? We can spend hundreds and thousands of pounds installing speed cameras ouside schools, why not have railings and a footbridge to cross the road instead?

Talking of speeds, why are most accidents happening in supermarket car parks? must be due to the speed...

I come back to my argument from earlier. Lack of training/confidence is a killer. I was once drving south along the M6 when a lady driver in the company of her friend and four children decided to move into the (3rd) overtaking lane from the second. When she was straddling the both lanes i.e. halfway there she looked in the rear view mirror and saw me. She freaked and overcorrected and ended up on the hard shoulder, corrected again and drove into the central reservation infront of me. In the space of maybe 4 seconds she crossed the M6 twice before crashing and bringing chaos to the M6. Had she been observing before maknig a lane change she would have timed it to move into my lane after I had gone past or realised that actually I had been quite aware of what she was doing and so had slowed down for her...

I know that realistically we can't increase the national speed limit. Too many slow moving lorries, older cars, volume of traffic on the public high way and only three narrow lanes cannot allow a mandatory 90mph minimum speed limit. We know that upping the speed and getting people moving is the way forward but our political leaders and many of us keep our heads in the sand or up our a$$es and want to further slow everything down. We police those who can and are able to go faster, harder.

Why don't we deal with the real problems? Why are there so many old cars on the roads? Why are new and safer cars so expensive for people to own? Why is advanced driver training so expensive? Why is it not mandatory? Why are people who are scared of driving, on the road? Why is a lethal weapon given to people who cannot grasp it's capabilities? Why isn't public transport better/safer/cleaner/accessible? Why don't we derestrict our trucks and lorries to go a little faster so they don't clog the M1, M4 & M6? Why don't we introduce a toll on the motorway and lift speed limits? Why don't we have motorway competency as part of the driving test? Why are we such an anti-car, anti-speed nation? These are just thoughts and I'm ranting again....

 

[maddog]

I have to say one point here 130mph is never safe whatever car you are in, you are kidding yourself if you think it is. You may feel that being a well trained or even experienced driver that its safe to do those kind of speeds but its not, tyres blow, components fail, other vehicles go out of control....S**T happens and at 130mph you have little time to react.

A professional driver means nothing apart from the fact you earn your living from driving this fact alone doesnt mean you are a good or safe driver, take white van man for instance.

Now dont get me wrong i ride high speed very powerful motorcycles myself and often ride far in excess of 130mph, BUT i dont consider myself safe whilst doing so and i do it in quiet places where there is little chance of me taking anyone else with me or on the racetrack

I DO speed in 60 and 70 limits only never around town and if/when i get caught i will take it on the chin.

Like all laws if we break them we pay the consequences, there are many unfair or unnessasary rules in this country if you dont like it go to Germany and go as fast as you like on the autoban or even better take it to the racetrack.

 

[turnipsock]

This was a post I put up way back at the begining...

I too have 'none'.

Speeding in 30 (or 40) areas is unacceptable. Current figures are 50% of all road deaths occur in 30mph areas. 12% of road deaths occur on the motorways.

I'm also against the speed limiter thing that some lorrys and buses currently have. These limit the vehicles to something like 60mph. If they need to make up time, they can only do this in 30 mph areas where it is most dangerous (this may have something to do with the current figures)

In order to get the percentage of deaths down in the 30 mph the easiest way would be to increase the number of deaths in other areas so I would advocate the motorway speed limit be increased.

The 70mph limit was set in 1961 when most cars had drum brakes. Driving at 70mph then was a bit like driving at 100mph in a modern car.

apart from one flipant comment, this all still holds true. One idea that hasn't been suggested yet is a minimum speed limit in the outside lane. At present, I can pull into the outside lane and keep pace with somebody doing 60mph on the lane inside me...

 

[3146bj]

I'd be happy for 20mph mandatory outside all schools. Don't want to go fast there.

Most Australian states have lower speed limits outside schools. However, the application can leave a lot to be desired. In South Australia, it's 25km/hr and signed as applying "when children are in the vicinity". In Victoria it's 40km/hr at all times when the local speed limit is 50, or 40 at specified times "on school days" when the limit is otherwise 60. Unfortunately, "school days" can vary between adjacent schools and drivers are supposed to know! How? Generally, common sense seems to apply and 40 is observed when kids are around, even if it's outside "school hours".

Whenever speeding is discussed everybody is an expert based on their own experience. What we NEVER see is any serious data on the factors contributing to accidents. Speed is always blamed regardless of any other factor. It always makes good headlines and lets the pollies be seen to be doing somthing. I have never seen a study of a road accident carried out to the same standards required for a workplace accident (unless the accident was a workplace i.e. the driver was working, such as a tanker driver) using accepted accident causation models. No government makes sufficient resources available for such intensive investigation, so speeding gets the blame again.

 

[Silver Arrow]

Guys
Like Mark, I have some misgivings with assertions of professionalism suggesting a higher status than others on the road. This may be true for Police pursuit, Fire Engine and Emergency vehicle drivers, when plying their trade, but the rest of us, including them, are all in the same boat when civilians.

20 years experience can be just that, or more likely it’s 20 times the same one years experience. Just because the professionals get paid for a particular package doesn’t make them better than the gentlemen (or lady) amateurs who might have the resources and time to hone their skills, if they wish, at the edges of the envelope.

The most able fast drivers, professional or amateur, especially motorcyclists, of my acquaintance remain alive and fully functioning precisely because they have developed humility and a reserve which they exercise constantly when on the road.

 

[jberks]

One idea that hasn't been suggested yet is a minimum speed limit in the outside lane.

This is very true. I would also suggest that when congestion is highest, trucks should be limited to the inside lane only - or actually spend some of that tax money on extra lanes. Most 3 lane motorways are really single carriageways with a wall of trucks in two lanes to the left. There are other causes to congestion such as the self fulfilling propehesist - he who believes that a few miles ahead, the traffic will slow, so sees fit to match that lower speed now, holding up everyone behind him or forcing them to undertake if they can squeaze between the trucks.
Factor in white van man who believes his transit can keep up with the traffic going up a hill (when he can't) and its no surprise we have congestion and find ourselves pulling silly speeds on the few occasions we get the chance to catch up a little. Improve driving standards, let traffic flow and speeding may well decrease.
It is true that cars are vastly better than those in the 60s and 70 relatively speaking is a totally different proposition today. However, I can't help feeling that the 70 limit with police allowing up to 85 (as most do) when conditions allow is ok. I suspect that if the limit were 85, most of us would end up at 100. We like a little danger and if we're honest, the risk of getting caught keeps up alert.

 

[paulcallender]

I always stick to the 30mph limit in towns. You never know when you're going to encounter a pedestrian in the road, do you?

 

[merc engineer]

Nice picture Paul of the zebra crossing.

 

[turnipsock]

There is something not quite right about that crossing?

 

[SLinKyjoe]

distinct lack of belishas?