Supercharger or turbo charger - which one ?

HERBIEMERCMAN

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hi everyone, i know some of the merc cars have superchargers, but not many other cars seem to have them, the vast majority having the turbo or twin turbo.

a friend of mine called some weeks ago to show me his 15 yr old DB5 aston martin. it was somthing like four litres with a supercharger. this was driven by a two inch diameter belt and was all die cast aluminium, quite large. he said the performance was awsome and averaged 17 mpg on longer journeys.

my question is, what advantage if any does the supercharger have over the turbo chargers ? is it the turbo lag ? which is why some cars like my brother's toyota supra has two turbos. herbiemercman.
 

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Turbochargers being exhaust gas driven cut in when the engine has reached sufficient revs to drive them . Superchargers being engine driven are there from low revs. The Golf 1.4 144 psi has both, a turbo and a supercharger (Kompressor) , stuffs the fuel charge in both ways.
 
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SQ_W211

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hi everyone, i know some of the merc cars have superchargers, but not many other cars seem to have them, the vast majority having the turbo or twin turbo.

a friend of mine called some weeks ago to show me his 15 yr old DB5 aston martin. it was somthing like four litres with a supercharger. this was driven by a two inch diameter belt and was all die cast aluminium, quite large. he said the performance was awsome and averaged 17 mpg on longer journeys.

my question is, what advantage if any does the supercharger have over the turbo chargers ? is it the turbo lag ? which is why some cars like my brother's toyota supra has two turbos. herbiemercman.

Turbo suffers from lag, bigger turbos suffer more as the turbo doesn't operate untill after 3000rpm whereas Supercharge is instant power at all times. Both of them compromise fuel economy and both have to be changed after being used for 40000miles to 60000 miles depending on the type of use and size.

I prefer supercharger as it gives very good output at all times. your brothers supra has twin turbo but still suffers from turbo lag as they both very big turbos and only kick in at after 2500rpm(or near about) but now a days german companies (BMW) use 2 turbos for different function, Bigger turbo to kick in at 3500rpm and smaller one which starts from lower rev range. This way you dont get no turbo lag.

Its a personal preference to be honest as they both have benfits
 

rf065

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Superchargers take a lot of HP out of the engine because they are belt driven and the engine has to work harder to power them. They are good as they supply a power boost from low revs but reach their limit as the revs climb higher. Power output limited by pulleys.

Turbo's are driven by exhaust gasses and are not mechanically driven by the engine, so hardly any HP lost. As the revs climb, the exhaust spins the turbo faster, increasing power accordingly. Easily tuned for higher power outputs.

I don't know why people still go on about turbo lag, modern turbos provide full boost from less than 2000rpm, drive a modern multi valve high revving normally aspirated car and they are gutless below 4500rpm. That's what I call lag.

Russ
 

Alex M Grieve

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I don't know why people still go on about turbo lag, modern turbos provide full boost from less than 2000rpm, drive a modern multi valve high revving normally aspirated car and they are gutless below 4500rpm. That's what I call lag. Russ

I recall having one of the first Peugeot 405 Turbo diesels in the UK - August 1988. I had driven petrol 405s in the Netherlands, but never a turbodiesel, and I ordered it "off plan".

The turbo power suddenly appeared very predictably at the same revs every time. 1749 rpm - nothing. 1751 rpm - 130 lbs foot of torque - massive for that size of car in those days. So you learned to drive on the rev counter more than the speedo, and principally use 3rd and 5th gears to ensure speedy progress across country.

Turbo lag, as you say Russ, barely exists today.
 

SQ_W211

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I think with turbo deisels its slightly different than the petrol engines. Petrol engines still suffer more of turbo lag. perhaps not as much as before
 

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Turbo suffers from lag, bigger turbos suffer more as the turbo doesn't operate untill after 3000rpm whereas Supercharge is instant power at all times. Both of them compromise fuel economy and both have to be changed after being used for 40000miles to 60000 miles depending on the type of use and size.

I prefer supercharger as it gives very good output at all times. your brothers supra has twin turbo but still suffers from turbo lag as they both very big turbos and only kick in at after 2500rpm(or near about) but now a days german companies (BMW) use 2 turbos for different function, Bigger turbo to kick in at 3500rpm and smaller one which starts from lower rev range. This way you dont get no turbo lag.

Its a personal preference to be honest as they both have benfits



So you have to replace the supercharger at around 60k then????:eek:

Was told they are fine and dont fail as a rule:confused:
 

muller1

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Turbo V Supercharger

both have to be changed after being used for 40000miles to 60000 miles depending on the type of use and size.

I used to race Supercharged cars and they are the bees knees.
The boost is in direct relation to the ratio of the drive and the engine speed loaded or not.
If the engine is 1 litre and the Supercharger is 1/2 litre per rev and the ratio is 2 to 1 the volume is equal and the engine is being pressure positive fed.
If you then double the ratio ie 4 to 1 then you now have double the boost at any engine revs irrespective of the load on the engine.
A turbo engine requires the engine to be on load and is not so speed orentiated as it is the quantity of exhaust gas the spins the turbo.
An engine running at 3000 rpm no load produces a lot less exhaust gas than a loaded engine at the same 3000 rpm therefor the turbo would now be boosting quite hard on the loaded engine.
A supercharger is the kindest way to get morte power from the engine and is constant.
I have never heard that it is necessary to change the turbo or supercharger at any given miles and I would say by my experience that afte 200,000 with my Landcruiser Turbo charged, and my vovlos 150,000 and 112000 respectivley I have never even had to look at any of them.
Given regular oil changes and a "cooling down" period after hard driving they go on for ever.
Regards.
Mike Muller
 

type49

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both have to be changed after being used for 40000miles to 60000 miles depending on the type of use and size.

This is simply not true. Mercs have had superchargers now for 10 years In everyday production cars. In 15 years at a dealership, I have probably replaced no more than 10 superchargers. Putting a life of 40-60K on them is unheard of by anyone I have ever worked with.
 

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MB superchargers are quite reliable and should last more than 60K.

The blower in VW G40s and G60s used to conk out at that sort of mielage IIRC.
 

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I used to race Supercharged cars and they are the bees knees.
The boost is in direct relation to the ratio of the drive and the engine speed loaded or not.
If the engine is 1 litre and the Supercharger is 1/2 litre per rev and the ratio is 2 to 1 the volume is equal and the engine is being pressure positive fed.
If you then double the ratio ie 4 to 1 then you now have double the boost at any engine revs irrespective of the load on the engine.
A turbo engine requires the engine to be on load and is not so speed orentiated as it is the quantity of exhaust gas the spins the turbo.
An engine running at 3000 rpm no load produces a lot less exhaust gas than a loaded engine at the same 3000 rpm therefor the turbo would now be boosting quite hard on the loaded engine.
A supercharger is the kindest way to get morte power from the engine and is constant.
I have never heard that it is necessary to change the turbo or supercharger at any given miles and I would say by my experience that afte 200,000 with my Landcruiser Turbo charged, and my vovlos 150,000 and 112000 respectivley I have never even had to look at any of them.
Given regular oil changes and a "cooling down" period after hard driving they go on for ever.
Regards.
Mike Muller

Good accurate comments. Turbos and superchargers are quite reliable given proper treatment.
I think turbos are inherently more economical as they don't draw power from the engine to drive them. S/C's are certainly better from a lag point although, with diesels and their constant light boost on cruise, lag is basically nonexistent once on the move. Off the mark can be laggy but can be minimised with ecu remapping. Extra boost is more easily found with turbos too with wastegate mods. Easier than changing drive pulley ratios.
I guess there is a noise factor with S/C's too that doesn't apply with turbos and also possible drive-belt failure with S/C's.
Each has their own peculiar advantages - both are good really. The new Golf makes the best of both worlds from a performance perspective but I guess it still has to drive the supercharger all the time - wonder if it runs in a different no pressure mode when the turbo takes over:confused:
 

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This is simply not true. Mercs have had superchargers now for 10 years In everyday production cars. In 15 years at a dealership, I have probably replaced no more than 10 superchargers. Putting a life of 40-60K on them is unheard of by anyone I have ever worked with.

I wasnt talking about all cars in general, such as ALL supercharged VW's g60's with supercharger will last for 70K from new and then need to be uprated at every 40 - 60K depending on the usage. Mercs are slightly different as we have bigger engines and do not use the superchargers to the max whereas the VW G60's were only 1.8 litre hence needed to use the supercharger to produce the same power as my 2.3 engine.

I am not a mechanic by any means and only going by what I have had experience with in past.
 
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baron210

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40000 to 60000 doesn't apply then!

Phew, i'm glad my turbo should last a bit longer that that mileage, having just spent £700.00 on my D service for an E320 CDI.

To be honest, I still drive like a Royal Mail driver at 60MPH most of the time (on dual carrageway's & Motorways), averaging 38MPG (sometimes hitting 42), and love the car (can put up with the cost's for the ride quality).
Still can't catch the fastest thing on four wheels though (A Sprinter in a hurry)!

Now building / configuring Industrial / MOD PC's for a living.

Martin S. (Portchester, Hants).
 

muller1

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Superchargers use

Mercs are slightly different as we have bigger engines and do not use the superchargers to the max .

It is not possible to use a supercharger to the max or min.
It does its own thing and only compresses a volume of air in direct relation to the engine speed.
It does not increase pressure with rpm only increases volume volume unlike a Turbocharger as the faster it spins the more boost hence more pressure.
It the supercharger is set to give 7 psi of boost which is equal to 1/2 atmmosphere it will do this at 800 engine rpm and almost the same at 6000 engine rpm.
As I said the supercharger has a constant volumetric displacement per rev and it cannot be "thrashed" or "caned" it is like an alternator it just does it's thing and for a very long time.

Hope this helps a bit.

Mike
 

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Is there not the durability advantage for superchargers with petrol engine's especially.

We all know in a perfect world drivers allow their blown engines (petrol especially) to warm up a little before hard use, and more importantly to cool for a few minutes after hard use before turning off, this being paramount to long turbo life as otherwise the oil in the turbo galleries boils and turns nasty thereby blocking the oilways.

Boggling just how ignorant and uncaring many drivers are, we've all seen people arrive at motorway service stations for example after blasting up the road and simply turn their turbo'd engines straight off...makes me cringe.

So it's little surprise that petrol turbo's can have a short life, aided by ridiculously long oil change intervals (i care not a jot for all these amazing modern oils lasting almost indefinately), whereas the supercharger doesn't have to stand the heat so should in theory be longer lived.

Purely out of interest does anyone know of a car diesel being fitted from standard with a supercharger, i can recall trucks and train engine's being so fitted and the sounds from the 2 stroke versions was wonderful.
 

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Turbo suffers from lag, bigger turbos suffer more as the turbo doesn't operate untill after 3000rpm whereas Supercharge is instant power at all times. Both of them compromise fuel economy and both have to be changed after being used for 40000miles to 60000 miles depending on the type of use and size.

Definately not so. My C180K petrol is returning 40mpg and I was never able to get near that on my previous naturally aspirated cars. Remember the supercharger only comes in when you welly it , drive with a light foot and it and you won`t wake it up.
 

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Remember the supercharger only comes in when you welly it , drive with a light foot and it and you won`t wake it up.

The supercharger is run from a belt attached to your engine which is using power even when the engine is idling.

Russ
 

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... Remember the supercharger only comes in when you welly it , drive with a light foot and it and you won`t wake it up.

Perhaps you mean turbo charger:confused:
 

True romance

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don't know if anyone watched chop shop on discovery channel the other day, they had a 944 in and fitted a supercharger...increased power from 160bhp to 292bhp!!!.....did blow the head gasket while test driving it :shock:
 

Splatt

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Perhaps you mean turbo charger:confused:

The relatively garden-variety Mercedes SLK230 and C-class is equipped with a less sophisticated Eaton M62 supercharger. The M62 displaces 1000cc of induction air per revolution and is smaller overall than the M90. On the SLK, the Eaton M62 generates up to 7 psi of boost and with the aid of an air-to-air intercooler it makes 142kW. Again, an electro-magnetic clutch is used to switch the blower on/off.

IE; The supercharger only cuts in when the system senses the need.
 
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