The future of diesel?

[flowrider]

I hope it doesn't have a future. I know some people swear by them & say how 'quiet' they are these days, but not half an hour ago I watched a pretty new diesel BMW roll past me (I didn't register what it was) and I swear it sounded like a ford transit from the 90's.

I can't imagine why anyone wants that noise.

You hear this all the time from diesel owners saying how quiet they are and its true when sitting in the car a diesel, especially an MB diesel, is very quiet but if they step outside they will think differently.

 

[davemercedes]

NB it isn't the black soot ....

If we all really wanted pure clean automotive prime movers and all actually gave a rat's ass about the environment, pollution, other peoples' health etc, the global population would be demanding fuel-cell hybrids NOW at current market prices (again, it's all possible...) but we don't hear that do we?

We mustn't forget the old adage of money driving absolutely everything. I'm actually surprised that electric has moved so far without the developers mysteriously disappearing...

And of course, while remarkable things really have been done to improve battery performance, most people think an electric car is "all green", conveniently forgetting the pollution caused in creating the electrickery (or the potential danger from nuclear plants).

btw:
I wonder what ever happened to the electric/steam car? I sat with SWMBO forty years ago and watched a documentary that showed a prototype car (it looked rather like a Triumph Stag). Electricity was passed over the water which exploded, providing propulsion. Being a steam engine it had no gears - I remember the TV picture zoned in on the rear exhaust and it shot off rapidly into the distance with a silent "whoosh" - it really did work. The story was that the US inventor had refused $millions from General Motors, saying he wanted to go it alone... SWMBO thought I was mad when I said it would never come to production and he would probably get bumped off!

More recently, what happened to the "air" engine which provided the power to a new design of "air-driven engine" that someone was developing? In place of a fuel tank it had an immensely strong air cylinder which provided air-powered propulsion. Like electric charging stations, the drawback was going to be the cost of setting up a network of "compressor" charging points.

I recall the inventor had supposedly 'proved' it had a much lower pollution overhead than electric power with increasing benefits coming with mass production.
- Maybe the developers got rich quickly and the patent is now owned by Sidi Ben Oilman or something?

 

[Scoob]

I thought NOX was the new big bad with Diesels, while Cats, DPF's, EGR's and changes to the actual fuel (low-sulphur) dealt with most of the other stuff - particulates being the sole reason the the power-sapping DPF of course. Not a 100% solution by any means but, with generally moderate driving, making a modern car infinitely cleaner than one from just ten years ago.

I've read the scare-mongering reports of "all cars exceeding emission limits" which is deliberate sensationalist reporting at its best. VW aside, most cars pass the test they're supposed to pass, running a different test then saying because of those results they must fail the original test is daft. I'm sure a badly maintained or indeed, a faulty car may well fail, but it's that what the MoT test is there to check? Sure, it's unrealistic to expect an engine at load to be as clean as one with zero load, but that's the test, silly as it is. I expect we'll see more "real world" type tests by the time it's become irrelevant...

I have a 2012 350CDI, it doesn't give out any visible smoke - but nor did my DPF-free 2004 Focus after I'd given it a good service, including all the non-service things like cleaning the EGR etc. It's distinctly less smelly when left to idle vs. my old Focus - a car that the MoT'er couldn't quite believe how clean it was running on more than one occasion. It's noisy, it's a diesel, they're all noisy, but it's "refined" for a diesel once warmed up and the cabin insulates any additional noise well, so it's fine from a driver perspective.

I actually bought it as very much a long-term proposition back in 2013, aimed at doing my daily 27 miles to work and 27 miles back again while retaining reasonable MPG. Irony proved to be ironic as I never, ever did that journey again, and just got made redundant! *sigh* Looking at my next position to be closer to home, so maybe not ideal daily (short) journey for a diesel.

If I were looking for a car today, I'd be keenly looking at electric. Sure, they deliver less pollution while driven, but battery production is still about as dirty and manufacturing gets, which is a worry.

At the end of the day, I suspect we'll be obliged to drive whatever the government is pushing this year, as they have since I've been driving. It used to be small gutless petrols, then agricultural NA diesels, the Turbo Diesels era for a while, new clean small-engined petrol Turbos or Electric Hybrids and fully Electric. It's only the last couple of years that the latter have really come into their own. I know my friend is still loving his Nissan Leaf for his regular short commute, though he has a normal petrol (his wifes) for longer trips.

Scoob.

 

[Taffy7hfa]

There is a simple solution to this, just tighten up the MOT emissions test, especially as its the older cars that are the worst offenders, of course that wouldn't bring in any extra tax revenue though would it ?

 

[Taffy7hfa]

New Minis use 3 cylinder engines (except Cooper S) and the diesel is particularly gruff. They also had a lot of issues with the diesels when first released with high wear rates (though that should be fixed now). Best Mini engine is the Cooper S. Driven carefully 37mpg is not difficult to achieve,

The engines in the new Minis (especially the diesels) are all sh1t.

 

[KeithJG]

All those that think the DPF is the answer ....just think about it?

Yes, it will collect all the crap and soot but it will throw it all out in one go at the next regen!

.......and use more fuel for the privalege of doing so.

 

[Craiglxviii]

We mustn't forget the old adage of money driving absolutely everything. I'm actually surprised that electric has moved so far without the developers mysteriously disappearing...Electric vehicles are on the market for one reason, the Corporate Average Fuel Economy regulations. That's it.

And of course, while remarkable things really have been done to improve battery performance, most people think an electric car is "all green", conveniently forgetting the pollution caused in creating the electrickery (or the potential danger from nuclear plants). Nuclear plants produce fewer radioactive emissions (all sources) than any form of combustion basedpower generation (gas, oil, especially coal). It really is the way forwards.

btw:
I wonder what ever happened to the electric/steam car? I sat with SWMBO forty years ago and watched a documentary that showed a prototype car (it looked rather like a Triumph Stag). Electricity was passed over the water which exploded, providing propulsion. Being a steam engine it had no gears - I remember the TV picture zoned in on the rear exhaust and it shot off rapidly into the distance with a silent "whoosh" - it really did work. The story was that the US inventor had refused $millions from General Motors, saying he wanted to go it alone... SWMBO thought I was mad when I said it would never come to production and he would probably get bumped off!Fuel cells?

More recently, what happened to the "air" engine which provided the power to a new design of "air-driven engine" that someone was developing? In place of a fuel tank it had an immensely strong air cylinder which provided air-powered propulsion. Like electric charging stations, the drawback was going to be the cost of setting up a network of "compressor" charging points. Because it's F***KING DANGEROUS! You've seen "Jaws", right? You're effectively driving around on a bomb. It's already been done, a Tata microcar is compressed-air powered. No other country including the PRC will allow that tech on the roads for safety reasons. Imagine one getting hit by a bus. Kaboom!

I recall the inventor had supposedly 'proved' it had a much lower pollution overhead than electric power with increasing benefits coming with mass production. Some pros, some cons re efficiency, the biggest con is the explosion risk factor.
- Maybe the developers got rich quickly and the patent is now owned by Sidi Ben Oilman or something?

Some answers there for you chap

 

[Scoob]

All those that think the DPF is the answer ....just think about it?

Yes, it will collect all the crap and soot but it will throw it all out in one go at the next regen!

.......and use more fuel for the privalege of doing so.

It's a bit silly yes. They collect soot, so, partially unburnt fuel, and add MORE fuel to burn it off to release ash...in theory. My thought was always why is the car not fully burning the fuel? Sounds like a rubbish fuelling map to me, running a bit rich.

Scoob.

 

[Noelmc]

Technically diesel is not dead, but politically it's lost. Too many people (firms) stating things that are not correct , too many firms trying to get away without fitting the correct kit i.e. adblue systems (too big spatially in small cars). Nox levels are increasing in cities not decreasing, which reinforces the publics perception that they are being conned. The old adage is you reap what you sow. The industry has tried to fudge and hide ( ahem con) the authorities and they will need to take on board the consequences.

 

[LostKiwi]

The engines in the new Minis (especially the diesels) are all sh1t.

What's wrong with the 2 litre turbo in the Cooper S?

 

[Craiglxviii]

What's wrong with the 2 litre turbo in the Cooper S?

Nothing at all, it's the best engine they've put in any of the (new) Minis. Seeing as it also goes into a whole load of other Beemers including the X1 I don't think it can really be knocked!

 

[d215yq]

If you look at the soaring cancer rates since the 1960s and then discount the part explained by us living longer, the part explained by pollution and the part explained by a more sedentary lifestyle, etc there is a huge amount of cancer that is completely unexplained.

The chances are in 50 years we'll find out that something we're doing every day that we have no idea about actually causes cancer - just as smoking and asbestos and many other things were deemed normal at their time.

My bet would be it won't be diesel particulates which have been about for a while and should have produced some kind of evidence if they were really bad by now, but more likely be a certain type of plastic we use in practically everything we touch, wifi or phone signals or something like that. Much as we are increasing our knowledge exponentially of what we do know it seems we don't have a capacity to consider all the millions of things we don't know, and as such tend to miss the bigger picture.

I doubt the future of diesel is dead although it does seem city centres (as in the actual central square mile or so, not the whole city) will become no-go areas for anything with an engine and eventually even electric cars. TBH unless people live in the city centres I see no reason why anyone would take a car there anyway.

 

[Craiglxviii]

http://scienceblog.cancerresearchuk.org/2015/02/04/why-are-cancer-rates-increasing/

This research shows that the increased risk is pretty much due to age, it becomes almost exponential.

Please provide fact and data behind your opinions?

 

[davemercedes]

Some answers there for you chap
And of course, while remarkable things really have been done to improve battery performance, most people think an electric car is "all green", conveniently forgetting the pollution caused in creating the electrickery (or the potential danger from nuclear plants). Nuclear plants produce fewer radioactive emissions (all sources) than any form of combustion based power generation (gas, oil, especially coal). It really is the way forwards.

It may the best technical way forwards but it would only take one major terrorist incident to close all the nuclear plants (and maybe us!) down.

btw:
I think I remember there was an ad for diesel Merc where the stuff coming out of the rear exhaust was cleaner than the air that went into the intake?

 

[Craiglxviii]

It may the best technical way forwards but it would only take one major terrorist incident to close all the nuclear plants (and maybe us!) down.

btw:
I think I remember there was an ad for diesel Merc where the stuff coming out of the rear exhaust was cleaner than the air that went into the intake?

Nah. You ever heard of the Civil Nuclear Constabulary? https://www.arrse.co.uk/wiki/Civil_Nuclear_Constabulary

Quite frankly there are very many other targets that could have a devastating effect that are far less heavily guarded and much easier to attack either conventionally or asymmetrically. Obviously I'm not going to discuss that in open forum but "liquefied natural gas" features in the description of a few and "ammonia" in others.

 

[Botus]

Indeed, I can't help thinking a modern diesel with low CO2, a DPF and adblue to remove the nox really isn't that bad.

I don't think it kills people instantly.

It's the older diesels and those where the 4th owner has ripped the DPF out that are the issue. IMO the MOT test should test that where a DPF is fitted, it is functional, and the removal of a factory-fitted one should be illegal.

I said its was instant death, I didn't say it kills you straight away.

The filth that come out, instantly sets of the time bomb that will be what you die from (assuming other unfortunate incidents / stuff doesn't get there first)

 

[Craiglxviii]

I said its was instant death, I didn't say it kills you straight away.

The filth that come out, instantly sets of the time bomb that will be what you die from (assuming other unfortunate incidents / stuff doesn't get there first)

Where is the fact and data that supports your instant death theory?

 

[DREAMER NO2]

New news today , about the lock out for diesel cars in London ..

 

[geraldrobins]

New news today , about the lock out for diesel cars in London ..

But not very soon.

 

[Yugguy]

I said its was instant death, I didn't say it kills you straight away.
)

Er, instant does mean straight away????