Worrying drop in fuel prices.

[Craiglxviii]

Ah, I see. You know about the personal exemption, (2500 L) I presume?

I thought it was 2000l, but yes. It's per person, not per household, SWMBO and I won't get through 4000l per annum I'm fairly sure!

Just a shame one can't make biopetrol as that would make the CL even cheaper to run!!

 

[om613]

I thought it was 2000l, but yes. It's per person, not per household, SWMBO and I won't get through 4000l per annum I'm fairly sure!

Just a shame one can't make biopetrol as that would make the CL even cheaper to run!!

"The threshold does not apply separately to each individual producer at the same premises - or sets of premises. The producer(s) must register if total annual production at the same premises or sets of premises is 2,500 litres or more.

Partnerships, collectives and cooperatives (including non-profit making organisations) are liable to register and account for duty if total annual production is 2,500 litres or more".

From section 4.2.3
https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...tice-179e-biofuels-and-other-fuel-substitutes

 

[Craiglxviii]

B@stards. They changed it then. Even so, 2500 litres is just over 500 gallons, we would only likely use 50-70% of that tops.

 

[om613]

B@stards. They changed it then. Even so, 2500 litres is just over 500 gallons, we would only likely use 50-70% of that tops.

No, it's unchanged since it was introduced in 2009.

Have you any particular 'kit' in mind?

 

[Craiglxviii]

No, it's unchanged since it was introduced in 2009.

Have you any particular 'kit' in mind?

Must be my memory then, that's worrying!

No not yet. I've dabbled with this idea 3 times, once in '06 when I first moved oop north, once in '10 when I came back dahn sarf, and now. The first two times I was planning on making the kit myself, now I'd probably buy a ready-made jobby. But that said, any and all advice is very welcome. I was planning on clearing out a corner of my garage to install the thing.

 

[keefysher]

Have you any particular 'kit' in mind?

A redundant fuel bowser off a RAF airfield?

 

[Craiglxviii]

You'd be lucky, there are so few airfields left nowadays they'd spot a missing bowser!

No, something that can process 100 litres would do me fine. I have 55 and 45 litre tanks on the A3 and X Trail respectively so can't imagine needing any more than that at any one time.

 

[turbopete]

mate of mine has a processing plant and his own cooking oil business. i was talking to him a few months ago and he was saying that by the time he has made it, paid the tax etc on it etc (he has people that buy it from him) it works out so little cheaper, its barely worth doing. also, making it from waste cooking oil means its a lot thicker than regular pump diesel and thats probably the boggest reason it ruins pumps on modern diesels

 

[Craiglxviii]

mate of mine has a processing plant and his own cooking oil business. i was talking to him a few months ago and he was saying that by the time he has made it, paid the tax etc on it etc (he has people that buy it from him) it works out so little cheaper, its barely worth doing. also, making it from waste cooking oil means its a lot thicker than regular pump diesel and thats probably the boggest reason it ruins pumps on modern diesels

From what I understand then he is doing it wrong; it should just be the colour that is affected not the viscosity. The chemistry isn't too hard to follow for a duffer like me.

In terms of cost, I can source cooking oil for £40/ 100 litres; potassium hydroxide for £6/kg and methanol for £0.80/ litre. 100 litres biodiesel will require 500g + titration of KOH and 22 litres of methanol, add in the leccy cost this comes out to £61.03 for the yield, say 90-92 litres. That's anywhere between £0.60-0.66/litre cost price to me.

If you have to pay fuel duty that's £0.5795/litre, that works out to £1.24/litre. So running the numbers I have, you'd have to be able to get hold of oil at £0.15/litre in order to be able to produce and sell (at cost- no profit!) biodiesel at the current pump prices.

 

[turbopete]

From what I understand then he is doing it wrong; it should just be the colour that is affected not the viscosity. The chemistry isn't too hard to follow for a duffer like me.

In terms of cost, I can source cooking oil for £40/ 100 litres; potassium hydroxide for £6/kg and methanol for £0.80/ litre. 100 litres biodiesel will require 500g + titration of KOH and 22 litres of methanol, add in the leccy cost this comes out to £61.03 for the yield, say 90-92 litres. That's anywhere between £0.60-0.66/litre cost price to me.

If you have to pay fuel duty that's £0.5795/litre, that works out to £1.24/litre. So running the numbers I have, you'd have to be able to get hold of oil at £0.15/litre in order to be able to produce and sell (at cost- no profit!) biodiesel at the current pump prices.

the viscosity remains pretty much the same as it is in its cooking oil form. im not going to go into his business model too much, for obvious reasons, as its a guy ive known for around 30 of my 40 years, but i do have a pretty good idea of what the waste oil its made from costs him. and yes, it doesnt work out much, if any cheaper at the moment, than pump prices.

as for getting the chemistry 'wrong', im pretty sure that if that wasnt correct, it wouldnt pass the tests its sent for, as he sends a sample from 1 batch in every so many (not sure how many now) to be externally tested to ensure its up to the correct standard.

ive seen the plant. he has talked me through the whole process and ive stood and watched as the machines have been processing some of the waste oil. i even used to use it before i had common rail engines (and the 203 ran it for about 40k miles early in its life) and i can categorically state that i wouldnt want to fry my chips in it, but it was the same viscosity. if it had a more water-like viscosity, id be tempted to make it myself!

 

[Craiglxviii]

Hi Pete,

very interesting indeed. All the stuff I've seen (my best friend is an analytical chemist and gets involved in these sorts of things from time to time- I usually get dragged in now and again!) the biodiesel is of let's say halfway between oil and water.

I was planning on running the cars 50-50 cut with normal pump fuel, with a shot of redex every couple of tanks to keep things sweet.

 

[yorkshire1]

if its proper biodiesel itll run in most common rail engines, viscosity will be similar to diesel ,problems occur in colder weather if the feedstock contains any animal fats or fats that are solid at ambient temps, as these tend to resolidify as temps drop

any biofuel that is noticeably thicker than diesel wont be biodiesel but some type of veg oil/thinning agent blend

Craig 0.40ppl is a lot to pay for used oil at the moment .25ppl would be more like it

 

[Craiglxviii]

Hi, the 0.40 was for new oil, just a quick scan to find a reliable supplier. I've not begun sourcing in earnest!

 

[turbopete]

Hi Pete,

very interesting indeed. All the stuff I've seen (my best friend is an analytical chemist and gets involved in these sorts of things from time to time- I usually get dragged in now and again!) the biodiesel is of let's say halfway between oil and water.

I was planning on running the cars 50-50 cut with normal pump fuel, with a shot of redex every couple of tanks to keep things sweet.

if its proper biodiesel itll run in most common rail engines, viscosity will be similar to diesel ,problems occur in colder weather if the feedstock contains any animal fats or fats that are solid at ambient temps, as these tend to resolidify as temps drop

any biofuel that is noticeably thicker than diesel wont be biodiesel but some type of veg oil/thinning agent blend

Craig 0.40ppl is a lot to pay for used oil at the moment .25ppl would be more like it

i have to admit thats what i expected it being, ie much nearer regular pump diesel viscosity but this stuff has been tested hundreds of times over the years and he has made thousands of gallons of the stuff (i used to buy 200l at a time) and it was ALWAYS much thicker than regular diesel despite it going through all the processes it goes through, and him having some free hand soap (not the nicest smelling stuff i admit) left over from it!

he adds no thinning agent to the stuff he makes its just the potassium hydroxise and methanol he adds, and IIRC washes with water at the appropriate stage in proceedings. there are some thinning agents you can get, more particularly aimed for winter use than anything, im informed, but he has never added any and customers that buy it just thin it down for winter by adding pump diesel or a small amount of petrol

 

[yorkshire1]

depends what he got it tested for aswell Pete, if it was for HMRC purposes quality wouldnt be a concern as its ester content they look at

as for end user quality contamination would be the main issues

table gives viscosities although measured at 40C for diff standards

https://www.biofuelsystems.com/specification.htm

 

[turbopete]

IIRC it was tested for glycerine, methanol etc levels not sure what else as i dont know where (as in which labs or what they test for) the samples are sent, but i seem to recall him saying that if it was wrong in some way, it would ruin the engine in pretty short order (more likely the injectors and pump but i got the general drift that the engine wouldnt run long!)

im told it complies with the EN regulations also, like regular diesel has to be to EN 590, this stuff he makes complies with the biodiesel equivalent

as far as the viscosities go, cooking oil thickens up faster at lower temps than pump diesel, so at 40c the difference may well not be so high but i think if the test was done at a liquid temp of 5 or 10c the results could well show a bigger difference possibly

 

[eman]

Before I had the E class back in 2011 I was looking at getting one of these http://fenlandbiodieselprocessors.com/ I could get the oil from my sisters *******s as the oil was changed every week, but reading the manual MB tell you not to use bio diesel in the newer engines (cant remember why) or is it scare mongering.

 

[om613]

mate of mine has a processing plant and his own cooking oil business. i was talking to him a few months ago and he was saying that by the time he has made it, paid the tax etc on it etc (he has people that buy it from him) it works out so little cheaper, its barely worth doing. also, making it from waste cooking oil means its a lot thicker than regular pump diesel and thats probably the boggest reason it ruins pumps on modern diesels

True, making and selling bio legally, small-scale for road use is commercially dead.
And that was at 2014's diesel prices.

Bio made from any feedstock is more viscous than pump diesel but that's not the main reason it kills (tired) IPs.

 

[om613]

the viscosity remains pretty much the same as it is in its cooking oil form.

That's incorrect. As is so much one hears about properly made or not B100.
It's classic 'bloke in the pub said' territory!

 

[yorkshire1]

I believe there are a few factors involved (eman)

The problem isnt that the engine wont burn it, in fact Common rall engines actually burn veg oil related fuels better than the older inline/rotary pump engines due to the finer atomisation at the injectors and multistage injection

The problem is ensuring quality and getting it there

Some manufacturers will find it easier to say incompatible due to the fact that it would have to be proven that the fuel used was at all times up to the relevant standards,there are others though whose engines are fully compatible with 100% biodiesel

Some components of the fuel system may be incompatible with bio. metals as well as some rubber/plastics/gaskets filter adhesives etc

The way some cars regenerate for emission control may not be suitable to bio use

One of my sons has a 2008 PD engined golf (high pressure but not common rail)and it runs a treat on Veg oil/petrol blend