Brexit

[LostKiwi]

Says the immigrant

Most immigrant stories in the press are designed to wind up the readership and are full of selective and/or misinformation.

The NHS would collapse if it wasn't for migrant workers, the vast majority of whom do a fantastic job. I think the quality vs. quantity argument is valid. If wife and I were to move to Aus/NZ we would have to pass their tests for suitability, eligibility have a job to go to and be sponsored etc. We've thought about it, checked it out, it's doable for us.

The UK has almost no test for suitability. Eligibility for admission seems to be how adept you are at thieving your way from the 'stan and bunking in on an artic.

The fact that many people want to come here is a testament to how good it is here and who here, born elsewhere in some corrupt war-torn dump, wouldn't want to make a better life for their family elsewhere?

Can't blame the migrants, can blame the politicians for making it so easy with so few sanctions available.

That was entirely my point. We depend on immigrants in certain sectors of the community from doctors and nurses right through to car washes and fruit picking. In many cases the immigrants do the jobs the local population feel are 'beneath' them. Look at how many immigrants are involved in the cleaning industry for example. Then look at how many of the local population are then look at the unemployment queues.
Nuff said.

And yep I'm an immigrant. Been here since 1988 so not exactly the short break it was intended to be. Why am I here? For the weather....

 

[prwales]

Britain will have difficulty servicing its debt should we leave the Eu, interest rates will need rise just to maintain some kind of value to sterling. Theoretically it will make exporting easier but the Eu will most likely make things problematic by possibly imposing a tariff. Both the Eu and the UK will suffer some negative economic growth as a consequence. This though in the context of global warming is a positive thing, which is why I am considering voting to leave.

 

[LostKiwi]

Both the Eu and the UK will suffer some negative economic growth as a consequence. This though in the context of global warming is a positive thing, which is why I am considering voting to leave.

I'm not quite sure I get this....
You would vote in favour of another recession and for people to lose their livelihood?

 

[lwbnick]

Britain will have difficulty servicing its debt should we leave the Eu, interest rates will need rise just to maintain some kind of value to sterling. Theoretically it will make exporting easier but the Eu will most likely make things problematic by possibly imposing a tariff. Both the Eu and the UK will suffer some negative economic growth as a consequence. This though in the context of global warming is a positive thing, which is why I am considering voting to leave.

http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/02/if-deutsche-bank-collapses-its-taking-the-euro-with-it/

 

[prwales]

I'm not quite sure I get this....
You would vote in favour of another recession and for people to lose their livelihood?

It's a reasonable prediction not a certainty, and whilst I would like everyone in the City of London to lose their jobs I certainly wouldn't want it affecting anyone else. There are various responses to people losing their jobs though and it doesn't have to be the current model imposed by IDS and Cameron

 

[PovertySpec]

whilst I would like everyone in the City of London to lose their jobs I certainly wouldn't want it affecting anyone else

 

[prwales]

The mess we're in from 2007 onwards is down to them. The Banking sectors refusal to invest in UK manufacturing over a 40 year period is also down to them, complete with the industrial decline that has resulted.

 

[lwbnick]

Plus the casino banking industry demanded taxpayer bailouts, but was happy to pull the plug on actual strategic industries.

City of London has it coming...

 

[toby1]

Regulated by one G. Brown originally.

Anyway, interesting article back on topic: http://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...s-down-on-brexit-it-s-taking-the-euro-with-it

 

[toby1]

Bring back duty free! http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/...randed-as-bring-back-duty-free-20160224106510

 

[Frontstep]

Surely most people understand that the Banking community is important to us all, that we need them for access to capital ?
Yes SOME need locking up but if you have ever run a business above a car boot sale table you know they are needed.

There is a fear mentality spread by the pro EU group reminiscent of the millenium bug doom mongers.
Mr Benz will still get his car to us and Mr Bentley will get his out does anyone seriously believe that the giant German manufacturers of many things in our lives will let Mrs Merkel et al get in the way of one of their biggest markets ?
Clearly if we aren't treated the same for our exports it would affect our enthusiasm for theirs.

 

[lwbnick]

Surely most people understand that the Banking community is important to us all, that we need them for access to capital ?

But it's our money?

Either our savings, or pretend money created by central banks to stimulate the economy, which didn't work, and would have been far better used to invest in national infrastructure.

The entire finance industry of this country seems to be a load of well connected spivs gambling our futures and our lives for short term gain.

I see the head honcho at Lloyds has been given a £8.5m for a years work, that's our money, how come he gets a vast amount of taxpayers money when 1000 libraries have had to close due to lack of funds?

One way traffic.

 

[d215yq]

There is a fear mentality spread by the pro EU group reminiscent of the millenium bug doom mongers.
Mr Benz will still get his car to us and Mr Bentley will get his out does anyone seriously believe that the giant German manufacturers of many things in our lives will let Mrs Merkel et al get in the way of one of their biggest markets ?
Clearly if we aren't treated the same for our exports it would affect our enthusiasm for theirs.

This is sort of the same problem with exaggeration and scaremongering with "out" as well as "in" though. Essentially big business wants free movement of people (cheap labour) and free movement of goods and standardized complex regulations (creates barriers to entry for competitors), and it will get it by lobbying the EU and Westminster in whatever negotiations follow a brexit. Therefore, leaving the EU would be a mainly symbolic gesture, and virtually everything big would essentially be the same by the back door, with the added complication of 5 years of lawyers arguing over "treaties" and child benefit for Romanians which sound important but essentially make zero difference.

Westminster (all main parties) and the EU essentially have the same ideology: continued unsustainable growth by cheap debt instead of painful corrections and consuming within our means (and I mean private spending as much as public spending), ever expanding beaurocracy and suffocating regulations that massively benefit big business over small business, and basically looking after the 1% rather than the 99%.

This referendum, like the Scottish one, is essentially being drummed up as more important than it is by either side, giving an impression of democracy and people power when in essence there is very little. A Brexit will essentially make the markets jitter for a few months as they like certainty and after will be a deal that is practically the same as staying in. It will make little difference in the long term either negatively or positively.

 

[Frontstep]

But it's our money?

Either our savings, or pretend money created by central banks to stimulate the economy, which didn't work, and would have been far better used to invest in national infrastructure.

The entire finance industry of this country seems to be a load of well connected spivs gambling our futures and our lives for short term gain.

I see the head honcho at Lloyds has been given a £8.5m for a years work, that's our money, how come he gets a vast amount of taxpayers money when 1000 libraries have had to close due to lack of funds?

One way traffic.

Its not,
that's the point it's someone else's, not all bankers are "spiv's) the one's who gambled their way into unsustainable debt can be thrown to the wolves but the ones who facilitate important finance to many businesses do an important and useful job.

Yes, Bankers or at least some of them are wildly overpaid but he is in a Market with lots of wildly overpaid people just like Actors, Pop Stars, Footballers, Lawyers, Consultants etc.
I also know wildly overpaid people in many other occupations life is unfair.

 

[Frontstep]

This is sort of the same problem with exaggeration and scaremongering with "out" as well as "in" though. Essentially big business wants free movement of people (cheap labour) and free movement of goods and standardized complex regulations (creates barriers to entry for competitors), and it will get it by lobbying the EU and Westminster in whatever negotiations follow a brexit. Therefore, leaving the EU would be a mainly symbolic gesture, and virtually everything big would essentially be the same by the back door, with the added complication of 5 years of lawyers arguing over "treaties" and child benefit for Romanians which sound important but essentially make zero difference.

Westminster (all main parties) and the EU essentially have the same ideology: continued unsustainable growth by cheap debt instead of painful corrections and consuming within our means (and I mean private spending as much as public spending), ever expanding beaurocracy and suffocating regulations that massively benefit big business over small business, and basically looking after the 1% rather than the 99%.

This referendum, like the Scottish one, is essentially being drummed up as more important than it is by either side, giving an impression of democracy and people power when in essence there is very little. A Brexit will essentially make the markets jitter for a few months as they like certainty and after will be a deal that is practically the same as staying in. It will make little difference in the long term either negatively or positively.

It will make a big difference staying in that some may prefer an inexorable march towards a single European Superstate where Britains opt outs will become meaningless.

Trade agreements with the US are being negotiated in private by the EU as we speak.

 

[Naraic]

Overpaid...I work hard for my £2m per annum.

Edit: Oops...wrong thread.

 

[Craiglxviii]

It will make a big difference staying in that some may prefer an inexorable march towards a single European Superstate where Britains opt outs will become meaningless.

Trade agreements with the US are being negotiated in private by the EU as we speak.

The BIG problem with this is that trade agreements with the US are worth precisely zero, they're being reneged on worldwide on a daily basis. This is one of the primary reasons why China's economic rise has been seen; they actually DO stick to their trade deals, and as a consequence the confidence in deals with China is significantly higher than the US.

 

[d215yq]

It will make a big difference staying in that some may prefer an inexorable march towards a single European Superstate where Britains opt outs will become meaningless.

Trade agreements with the US are being negotiated in private by the EU as we speak.

I understand that, but given a Westminster government would do exactly the same as an EU superstate on practically all issues, it is just semantics and makes no determinable difference.

Take your example of the trade deal being negotiated: The US has just negotiated agreements exactly the same as the TTIP (European deal) with many different Asian nations. Based on our recent foreign policy record we would probably negotiate a worse deal than Europe with the US to keep the "special relationship". Governments the world over are negotiating these deals giving power to huge corporations and allowing them to trample over regulations and sue the governments of many nations (one example of many which is a general trend of expropriation from the public to the corporations). If you believe an independent Britain would not do the same thing, you aren't living in reality. As Britain is more "trade friendly" and "neo-liberal" than many of the other European states, recent history would suggest Westminster would make a worse job of it than Europe.

I dislike the EU and the deals you state, and am not sure what to vote. But I would have to be convinced that an independent Britain would govern the country better, and I really don't see that happening.

 

[SL63 Mark]

This referendum, like the Scottish one, is essentially being drummed up as more important than it is by either side, giving an impression of democracy and people power when in essence there is very little. .

^^^^^^^^^^ This, plus it's a sop to UKIP and the right wing Tory MPs.

 

[dry run]

But it's our money?

I see the head honcho at Lloyds has been given a £8.5m for a years work, that's our money, how come he gets a vast amount of taxpayers money when 1000 libraries have had to close due to lack of funds?

One way traffic.

That's not quite how it works! Most of that £8.5m payment will be in the form of shares, these are achieved by issuing more shares in the business, therefore slightly diluting the value of the shares held by all the other shareholders. So it's not your money it's the shareholders money.