estate buying advice (W123, W124, W210, W211), auto diesel preferred

[grahamperrin]

https://www.diigo.com/list/grahamperrin/list-2014050319222211 there's a list of cars that I have in mind. Mostly Mercedes-Benz. The list will change over time.

Overall preferences at the head of the list, to the left. General comments at the foot.

My budget for initial purchase is limited – aiming to spend no more than £2,000. A few more costly listings are included to remind myself how I might benefit by getting a little into debt, but I prefer a life that's entirely debt-free.

Photographs of my 1986 230TE automatic, taken when I tried to sell it in 2008, should give people an idea of where I'm coming from. Whilst the 300TE that's with me now should be good until at least November 2014, I'm quite motivated to get another car fairly soon.

Any thoughts?

If it helps: long and short introductions to my driving history, including my reasons for preferring Mercedes-Benz.

Cheers

 

[deejaybee]

Hi, welcome to the forum. Hopefully you will find the right sort of information here.

I would certainly agree with you that a good W124 is a very nice car, but unfortunately a budget of £2000 will really only get you a tired old banger these days! Why do you want to sell your current 300te?

There is a nice looking E220 estate on Autotrader for £5950, the seller may come down a bit, but that is the sort of money and upwards is what decent ones are going for these days. If you buy one for £2000 you probably won't be able to restore it to that level even if you do have £3-4k to spend on it as the cheaper ones generally are starting to get some serious corrosion setting in.

The W210 is actually a better driving experience than a W124 in my opinion, but is not quite as solid. As you have pointed out, rust is the main problem and it does affect most of them, but there are a few that are reasonably rust free. Unfortunately you won't get a decent diesel one in your budget, but it does depend what you want; one that a bit rough round the edges will give perfectly good service, but not so much of the "ownership experience"!

Unless you are prepared to spend a lot more a W211 is well over your budget. You can pick up earlier ones around £3.5-4k, but you will be taking a chance with the SBC. A decent post facelift one without the SBC will be at least £6-7k.

Good luck with your search.

 

[nyx]

that w124 230te is a lovely car and a great retro interior.

 

[Triv]

The gold one for £1800 as long as it's got leather. Looks lovely.
Some of them seem well overpriced but they're all at dealers, so I suppose that's par. I'd look privately. More car for less money.


Edit: I disagree with deejaybee. £2k will buy an excellent 210.

 

[grahamperrin]

How to easily tell the difference between W210 and W211?

… a W211 is well over your budget. …

Ah, I was going to post separately about how to tell the difference between W210 and W211. Something I read this morning, maybe not in this forum, made me believe that there was some overlap and that a few W211 models are well below £3,000 secondhand. Clearly some confusion!

So – in simple terms, for a newcomer to both types of chassis – what's the difference?

Thanks

 

[Triv]

Differences between 210's and 211's.
In short, the newer they get, the smaller they get but they rust less and have more toys but then they have more to go wrong and cost more to repair.

Don't make the mistake that these cars can be run on a shoestring. They're reliable enough. They don't go wrong very often but occasionally they'll bite your wallet.
I run mine for next to nothing and it shows. Car worth £800 but needs £2.5 - 3 k spending on bodywork!
I'd have a 211 if I could afford one. Even knowing all about the SBC pump failures but I can't afford one so that's that.
I do truly love my 210 however. You won't be disappointed by one. 124's are great but for driving, the 210 is light years ahead.

 

[robparker]

You will get a lovely 124 or 210 estate for £2k and will be very affordable to run. For a 123 or 211 I would advise spending a little more and they will both cost you a bit more to run (the 123 not too much if the bodywork is already up together).
Although its odd that you can be in the market for EITHER a 123 or 211 estate! Light years apart in every way!

 

[grahamperrin]

Clarification

estate buying advice (W123, W124, W210, W211) …

I just realised, for estates the references should have probably been:

• S123, S124, S210, S211

– whilst I can't change the title of this topic (a moderator is welcome to do so), I changed the tags.

… odd that you can be in the market for EITHER a 123 or 211 estate! Light years apart in every way!

I'm familiar only with S124, I don't recall ever being a passenger in any other Merc. Since beginning to consider a change, I'm learning about the other estates.

I like retro (my first car was a '65 Hillman), so 123 Mercs were always appealing – long before I ever imagined driving one. More chrome, and so on.

As things turned out, eventually I got an S124 – without considering any other type of Merc at the time – probably because that particular 124 was the only automatic estate Merc within my budget and not too far away.

When I let that first Merc go, I knew that I wanted another, S124 seemed the obvious choice. It was familiar to me.

Recently, my primary reason for considering something more modern than S124 was: there seem to be few 124s with working (and legally rechargeable) air conditioning. Now, the more I look at the S210 and S211, the more I'm drawn by some of the standard and above-standard features.

When eventually I test drive a different Merc – something other than the S124 – then I'll either be:

• inspired enough to happily accept the risk of a relatively large maintenance/repair bill some time in the future; or
• not inspired …

 

[grahamperrin]

Kicking the ball around

… occasionally they'll bite your wallet.
I run mine for next to nothing and it shows. Car worth £800 but needs £2.5 - 3 k spending on bodywork!

If I go very low budget at buying time, then I'll be only mildly concerned about bodywork. Tatty won't bother me.

If I'm to pay £2,000 or more, then I'd like the bodywork to look good, plus I might be more inclined to think about long-term good looks.

I like these suggestions, from 2010:

I am suggesting that the 15 year cost of buying and independently maintaining a solid, low mileage 124 would be significantly cheaper than the TCO of a much newer car changed every three years.

I am also suggesting that the total pleasure of that ownership would be higher. …

To put things in context, from me: Low budget S124 (300TE) total cost of ownership: reflections

I'd have a 211 if I could afford one. Even knowing all about the SBC pump failures …

Thanks for that hint. So I see posts such as these:

• http://forums.mercedesclub.org.uk/showpost.php?p=809978&postcount=4
• http://forums.mercedesclub.org.uk/showpost.php?p=517350&postcount=10
• http://forums.mercedesclub.org.uk/showpost.php?p=1107123&postcount=9
• http://forums.mercedesclub.org.uk/showpost.php?p=569860&postcount=10
• http://forums.mercedesclub.org.uk/showpost.php?p=485091&postcount=8

… 124's are great but for driving, the 210 is light years ahead.

Since reading more about pros and cons of diesel from Merc perspectives (example) I guess that at less than four miles, I'm probably better off with petrol for most of my local journeys. I can't imagine savings from longer journeys making a significant difference.

I should broaden my shortlist to include more petrol models. Already there, a 1999 automatic in Horsham, I might go to see it this week one afternoon after work.

… a nice looking E220 estate on Autotrader for £5950 …

AIRMATIC, that's new to me. I like the idea of a super-smooth ride. "… semi-active adaptive damping system (ADS) …". Not forgetting the possibility of something like that biting my wallet unexpectedly:

• is airmatic suspension a problem? | Mercedes-Benz Club of America
• Difference between Airmatic and Non Airmatic suspension - Mercedes-Benz Forum

And so on. Lots for me to think about …

 

[grahamperrin]

A comparable topic from a decade ago

… aiming to spend no more than £2,000. A few more costly listings are included to remind myself how I might benefit by getting a little into debt, but I prefer a life that's entirely debt-free. …

I stumbled across a 2004 topic: advice on buying 300TE 24v auto, want to spend about £2000

Incidentally I 'phoned Nick Froome (Brighton-based www.w124.co.uk) last month. Took advice on pros and cons of 124 and later diesels, and more. Very helpful.

 

[Triv]

Journeys less than four miles? Don't drive.
It doesn't matter what fuel you run on, it'll cost a bomb! Diesels don't like short journeys. Oh yeah, petrols don't like short journeys either! LPG is no use if you do short journeys, neither is WVO. Electric vehicles win there.

The only other thing I'll say is: Your after a car. They all have faults. Some more than others but at the end of the day it's a car. An ever depreciating asset that costs a fortune to drive. Doesn't matter what make or model.

You'll never get perfection in a vehicle. It just doesn't happen. That's why so many makes, models and the motoring press exist. Don't forget that, otherwise you'll never get the car you want!

Tatty bodywork. The amount of 210's selling sub £500 is huge. They all have rotten front wings, it doesn't matter if they're diesel. They'll go on til the end of time. Just buy some new wings and bolt them on. Then take it to a decent body shop and get them to paint them. Or take the car there with the wings in the boot and get them to fit them too. Clive at Benzworx can advise you there.
Petrol ones I know less about but I think that generally the bigger the engine, the more miles it'll do before major problems arise. Perhaps another member can advise more there.

The more you're prepared to shell out when you purchase, the more of a solid version you'll get. Sure there are idiots out there that think their car is perfect and worth £5k but then you just ask yourself why are they selling it? A 210 worth £5k is a very rare thing and I'm not sure any of them can actually currently be worth that much. Worth is always a matter of opinion and as you're the one holding the cash to spend, it's your opinion that counts.

As I said before, £2k will buy you a lot of s210. The bodywork will be good at that price. Just look out for tell tale respray giveaways. They've very nearly all had some bodywork repair done by now. Mine underneath is perfect but the bits you look at are depressing. Anything short of a full respray will stick out like a sore thumb.

 

[grahamperrin]

Journeys less than four miles? … cost a bomb! …

Understood. When I choose the car for those journeys, it's for the convenience.

The amount of 210's selling sub £500 is huge. They all have rotten front wings … They'll go on til the end of time. Just buy some new wings …

Coincidence … I just arranged to see a 2000 Tiptronic, 2.8 petrol, on the wings there's rust that's visible but far from a horror story. I could happily change the wings, eventually; I'd be more concerned about major bodywork. This one is not below £500 but I'd like to try Tiptronic, and I'm half-surprised to find it on this one.

Rust aside, it's great to be hear that overall longevity is good. (Since the 124 has such a good reputation, I was wary of getting something more modern that might die too soon. I know, we get what we pay for …)

Petrol ones I know less about but I think that generally the bigger the engine, the more miles it'll do before major problems arise. Perhaps another member can advise more there.

Advice there will be appreciated but honestly, because Mercs have such a good reputation, I'm paying little attention to mileage. My petrol 230TE had over 200,000 on the clock; current petrol 300TE has over 230,000; and a couple of weeks ago I had half an eye on a left-hand drive Polish diesel S124 with more than 400,000 on the clock.

Side note: there's a cross-post of this topic at MBClub UK. Just a few replies there. Thanks everyone.

 

[grahamperrin]

2000 E280 Elegance Tiptronic purchased for £695

… arranged to see a 2000 Tiptronic, 2.8 petrol …

I went for it. Paid for, paperwork all done and I'll drive it home tomorrow evening.

With the exception of the rust (not too bad) – on the exterior of the front wheel arches, and on a small area of the tailgate, above the registration plate – it's very tidy inside, outside and under the bonnet.

On the September 2013 MOT there was an advisory for an oil leak from the rear differential. No whining or clunking when I drove it today, so I'm reasonably confident that it'll not cost me a fortune in the near future.

Mercedes-Benz CD/radio, good loudspeakers and so on. No sunroof, but the air conditioning seems to work. Quiet to drive, and more than smooth enough (I like the idea of AIRMATIC, but I guess that a decent S210 with that feature would have been beyond my budget).

I'll probably get the car checked over, locally, at the weekend. Happy day!

 

[Irresistance]

There are now W210's with airmatic. All estate W210 have NIVO on the rear, which is a hydraulic damper system (with a spring as well). It is generally pretty bulletproof. Enjoy your car! I got one of these as well (Albeit 3.2 Diesel). Love it to bits although the damn thing does rust from every conceivable angle.

Oh and be ready for your friends asking to borrow the car to move (house/the sofa/all their stuff/etc.) - it has a truly massive luggage compartment!

 

[grahamperrin]

Yep, I'm fully prepared for occasional lugging. Palettes in the 300TE, up to an allotment, and so on.

I can think of only one other vehicle that was as spacious and as much fun: a Hillman Super Minx estate. I once had three – yes, three – washing machines in the back, one of which was a twin tub!

PS I never heard the word NIVO before – interesting, thanks. I found a Rover-related article, Self-leveling suspension:

> … Boge Nivomat … taken over by Mannesmann-Sachs …

I have (or had) self-levelling suspension on the 300TE …