Views upon ECU remapping and brabus chip

[*Thumper]

You're absolutley spot on David, and have conducted this issue quite professionally over this debate ........... in as much as you went out there and did the groundwrok nessarsary to reach the conclusions you did.

This I'm afraid will not be enough for some forum members, who will live off anecdotes, and cut & paste information............ and will never stop, and will always have the last word.

Remapping is a much misunderstood topic ............... and one that has thousands of variants ............ it's been used in the motor racing world for years.

If the remapp is sensable, then all will be good ................. if you take a vehicle to it's limits,................. it will break ................... you can also drive a car to it's limits and break it......... without a remapp (I've done it twice).

So thankyou for this thread and the conclusions you drew .................. for once, real info about a real remap, on a real car, from a real user !!!!

 

[Alex M Grieve]

Austin 850 cc

It is well recognized that an engine can be configured differently to achieve different outcomes. The Austin 850 cc engine of the 1930s is the subject of of a film on show at Gaydon.

Used in the Austin 7, the Morris Minor and eventually the mini, this plucky little engine was arranged to provide over 100 mpg in one guise, and (with supercharging) over 100 mph in another.

Not quite as subtle as "mapping" but the results are similar.

 

[Retired]

I’m very sceptical about the warranty offered by GCL.

A one year warranty from the likes of MB, Audi, BMW etc will cost you in the order of £500 to £1000.

For a price of less than that GCL will provide you with a remap and a warranty for the balance of the manufacturers warranty, i.e. up to 3years.

Now I recognize that the manufacturer is warranting the whole of the car and GCL are only warranting the bits that the manufacturer can legitimately can claim are affected by the remap. In practice this amounts to the whole engine, fuel system and the entire transmission. Whenever anything goes wrong with these major and expensive components the manufacturers are going to wash their hands of the fault and say it’s all down to the remap. It doesn’t matter if, e.g., the turbo was actually a manufacturing issue and nothing to do with remap the remap gets the blame.

How will you prove otherwise?

In other words GCL are carrying the whole warranty risk for the engine, fuel system and transmission of the cars they remap. They are doing this for a few hundred pounds for up to three years including the cost of the remap.

This does not make any commercial sense .

I would guess that if anyone makes a claim GCL will state that it wasn’t their product which caused the problem, the car manufacturer will wash their hands of the problem and the GCL customer will be left in the middle.

If GCL have a large customer base they will have had cars which have had problems following a remap. These problems may well have been going to happen irrespective of the remap, so might not be down to the remap. I would want to meet some customers who have had problems and to understand how they have been resolved under the terms of the warranty.

 

[*Thumper]

It would be usefull if your post had any facts in it, rather than, long boring opinion and anecdote

You've made many assumptions, thinly disguised as fact !

But hey ho !! ...... I did'nt expect any less !

 

[David-Butter]

Regarding the cost i would have thought remapping in the eyes if the insurer would be low risk there meaning low cost. Also just a thought im sure that if remapped vehicles were always "blowing up" then there would not be a market ? GCL offer with or without warranty, warranted remapping is clearly set at a reduced limit that the vehicle can take safe, more can be gained if you do away with the warranty.

First off your talking about worst case here, my gess is a very low percentage of people will have any problems.

Second i have found 20+ comapnys the dont offer any kind of back up this must mean GCL and such companys that do offer a "back up" are doing it for the benifit of the customer (and to attract new customers)

Ive all ready stated this but you may have missed it, if you want the truth go and get it instead of posting pointless posts that are mean little to members and offer members no help.

Looks like ive been lucky my questions have had a responce and ive been made aware of otherwise overlooked things.I feel sorry for people who want info about remapping or other mercedes related info. Ive been honest in my posts i have also got to the point with fact's. Instead now we have the " what ifs" and " but it could if ".

 

[psmart]

Because they (like the chap at the start of the epic remap thread) make astounding claims about their product and very rarely back them up.

Bug*ered if the do, bug*ered if they dont. No such thing as a free lunch and they have to protect themselves from a raft of claims as every tom dick and 1 celled turbo nutter will get the upgrade, shaft their cars and call on the tuners to 'bail them out'. Also, how do you prove economy? Vacuum sealed, temperature controlled, fixed track white jacket scientists which have little in common with real life, or real life situations which vary tremendously? I can get >30mpg from my ML500, another member on here has problems getting 22mpg from his ML500! The best a tuner can do is be honest, tell people what small risks they run (or large risks if your the 1 cell variety) and let them try for say 30 days before they buy, but even this has drawbacks - ie. tell people the reality and they will back away due to worry and lack of knowledge and the 30 day guarantee - people could just download the map (I have the equipment, easy to buy and use) depriving them of a sale.

Not sure where you're going here, I've yet to hear of anyone having a warranty claim turned down on account of having used premium fuel. I have however knowledge of people having their warranty voided due to modifying their engines.

It is the same issue. If a tuner makes a new map which just adds 8.3% power - how can it differ to say BP Ultimate usage? - trouble is, people on here will knock the tuner but not BP Ultimate even though the result is the same.

Which is something you can only do after you've looked at both sides of the coin and that's why you need people who question things, not just blindly follow where they're being led.

A DIY section article, listing all the con's, all the pro's and people's experiences (such as yourself and I) would go a long way instead of having regular knock the tuner threads!

OK, you're up by a couple of remaps, I've only had two so far.

Actually had my Fiat Ducato 2.8JTD Maxi tuned via an external box from new, travelled over 20K with a minimum of 5 tonnes laden (upto 6.75 tonnes about 50% of time) and not a single dicky bird of an issue. Great machine.
The RS Cosworth went through 2 turbo's and 1 water pump, primarily because the car used to be stuck in a warm garage for 6 months of the year unused and I put it down to the higher temperatures of the boost rapidly accelerating rust, which was the cause of the turbo and water pumps demise.
The RS Turbo blew a gearbox which I attribute to the remap and my turbo nutter ways, it also blew an engine when I decided to play chicken with a Pheasant, it lost, so did I!
The MG Montego Turbo went through 3 engines, but non attributable to the remap.
The ML270 .... I pulled the map out after a few thousand miles, but this was in haste as all the problems turned out to be Mercedes manufacturing quality! The map did transform the beast though and it made it a much more useable machine.

So, how about a DIY guide to remaps?

 

[The Pan Man]

I have read a lot of this with interest. The one thing that I can't agree with is this claimed MPG improvement with premium fuels. Every time I try V Power or the BP equivelent my MPG actually drops, I have reported this on several other posts. I use the V Power when I have the bonus points offer come from Shell and it's always the same. Anyone else find this?

 

[garytitley]

Iv'e been reading this thread over the last few days with interest,last year after alot of homework and speaking to different tuning company's one being dms automotive on the pro's and con's of a remap and tuning boxes i decided to purchase an st3 tuning unit from gcl who i might add were very informative and helpfull.The st3 was then installed with two maps of my choice one for power the other for economy/power and the origional software from my car so i could revert back to standard if i wanted,my car is a 2002 facelift s 320 cdi which has now covered 91,000 miles with a total main dealer service history,i have to date have had no problems whatsoever but must add that i don't drive like a prat and like to have the extra power for overtaking if needed.my point is that if you want to go ahead with a remap then from my experience i would say that providing you use a reputable company and dont thrash your car and have proper services done when needed then you should be fine and i did speak to quite a few mercedes dealers regarding remapping and most said that it should be fine but at the end of the day its your choice and i know that on this and many other forums no matter what is posted there are those that will poo,poo the remap debait.As for the warranty i suppose that to some extent that its not worth the paper it's written on but then again everything in life is a risk and no one would get anyware without taking some now and again if you get where im coming from,over and out.

 

[hawk20]

Seems to me the wrong question is being asked. Few doubt that a remap can give extra power. And we all know that the companies selling remaps provide guarantees of a kind - but with usually rather ambiguous and unclear wording. Asking them about the guarantee is the wrong way to go IMO as they will always say they guarantee their product. If it fails they'll give you a new one. They are never going to agree that their product caused consequential damage -and then pay for it.

What you need is Mercedes to say in writing what their guarantee will be if you fit a non-approved chip. My dealer says the guarantee will be void and lots of other members have been told the same by their dealers. If you get the Brabus chip you keep the MB warranty but only for 60k miles. With other chips you don't.

If you get another chip I would want MB to say that their warranty will not be void on everything, and to make clear whether anything at all will be covered and if so what.

Then make sure you tell your insurance company which you are legally obliged to do as if you do not your policy will be void.

 

[David-Butter]

If you could read and take the time to look you will find what you are looking for. We all know remaps give more power and now they are proven to be both safe and warranted !


Also a "chip" is different to a "remap".


Chip = Hardware - Detectable


Remap = Software - Hard to trace - leaves no "foot print"


As i have said before please just put the effort in and find out the FACTS before people post somewhat stupid meaning less post's.

 

[whitenemesis]

If you could read and take the time to look you will find what you are looking for. We all know remaps give more power and now they are proven to be both safe and warranted !


Also a "chip" is different to a "remap".


Chip = Hardware - Detectable


Remap = Software - Hard to trace - leaves no "foot print"


As i have said before please just put the effort in and find out the FACTS before people post somewhat stupid meaning less post's.

How confident are you on this point? And why would one wish to conceal the fact the map has ben changed? I'm not suggesting that you would wish to but the possibilty that one could is implied in the statement.

 

[npuk]

Remap = Software - Hard to trace - leaves no "foot print"


As i have said before please just put the effort in and find out the FACTS before people post somewhat stupid meaning less post's.

Has already been explained a remap is not undetectable. The ECU checksum is changed when a different map is written to the ECU so if for whatever reason the dealer decided to check or the insurance company after an accident, they would have no trouble finding out if it has been remapped.

 

[psmart]

Also a "chip" is different to a "remap". Interchangeable term. Modern cars use flash-ram inside the ECU, have onboard boot-strap loaders and can thus be re-programmed by the OBD port or via adapter connection to the ECU. A "chip" is a one-time programmable read-only memory (OTPROM), EEPROM or mask ROM which contains a "remap", which is then piggy backed (or replaces) the original device inside the ECU. The net effect is to replace the data (and potentially the software) within the ECU.

Chip = Hardware - Detectable By removal of the ECU and opening it up.


Remap = Software - Hard to trace - leaves no "foot print" Not true. The boot-strap loader has a counter, recording the number of times the flash-ram has been written, also, as mentioned, the Checksum and the entire map can be read out by a hand-held device connected to the OBD.

 

[David-Butter]

I realy do not want to argue but i been told the following.


Chip = Hardware - Detectable By removal of the ECU and opening it up.

Remap = Software - Hard to trace - leaves no "foot print" The boot loader is only one method wich (im told is not the correct method of communication unless re-writing a full eprom memory) .

If you are writing "blocks" of code (corrected/remapped blocks of data) the correct method is via the OBD port.

this can be corrected so the data has no trace. The flash counter can be reset on any vehicle (dependant upon tuner).

Im also told the "piggy back" style chip is an external hardware that feeds a stream of data to the ecu.

Checksum - This can only be read if the remap uses no encription (GCL Use encription) this would not allow anyone to find this data without the "KEY" file. If the ECU can not see the correct "key" it will refuse entry.

Once again this is from the horses mouth so to speak. I have also contacted DMS automotive and viezu these are all saying the same !

Please this is getting out of hand now, just get the correct info first time.This can not be wrong as the "Top" tuners are all saying the same. I am not the kind of chap to mess around if i want something do right i will go straight to the top of the chain a get it done. As you can see i have done my research and taken every thing on board and acted accordingly.

 

[bigyin1]

Checksum - This can only be read if the remap uses no encription (GCL Use encription) this would not allow anyone to find this data without the "KEY" file. If the ECU can not see the correct "key" it will refuse entry.

Once again this is from the horses mouth so to speak. I have also contacted DMS automotive and viezu these are all saying the same !

Please this is getting out of hand now, just get the correct info first time.This can not be wrong as the "Top" tuners are all saying the same. I am not the kind of chap to mess around if i want something do right i will go straight to the top of the chain a get it done. As you can see i have done my research and taken every thing on board and acted accordingly.

Does this mean that Mercedes can't access your ECU now for diagnostics or to install the latest MB calibration during routine servicing?? Unless of course GCL has told MB the "KEY" encryption for this Bosch EDC17 ECU...?

 

[*Thumper]

Not another Remap thread, going ballistic ................. how unusual !!!

"I'm gonna scream and scream and scream until I'm sick" ..............

I wonder how some of these poster's would deal with a divorce ........... lol

 

[hawk20]

As you can see i have done my research and taken every thing on board and acted accordingly.

Excellent. Does that mean you have got from Mercedes in writing that using a non-Brabus chip will not affect your warranty? See post 69.

 

[television]

I have read a lot of this with interest. The one thing that I can't agree with is this claimed MPG improvement with premium fuels. Every time I try V Power or the BP equivelent my MPG actually drops, I have reported this on several other posts. I use the V Power when I have the bonus points offer come from Shell and it's always the same. Anyone else find this?

Mine too has always been worse on V power, both this and the last car

 

[David-Butter]

Sorry i may have put this across wrong.

The "Key" is to return the Checksum and for the warranty (so no other persons can change the map) However it can be overwritten and normal diagnostic funtions remain the same.


The "Key" can be requested from GCL (I assume)

So without the key there is no telling and everything remains the same. This is not the point, GCL warranty will cover in the event of a failure.

 

[whitenemesis]

I still wonder why the map should be "invisible"?

The MB dealer knows it's been done, your insurer knows it's been done (I assume). So why all this explanation as to how it can't be detected? I could understand why it should be protected so it isn't accidently over-written but you say it can be over-written?

I assume the glc would reinstall the map should this happen?